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Thread: CAGED System

  1. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    CAGED system is more work than it's worth. The one concept it taught me was that you can use basic chord shapes (imagine, in your head, a D chord or a C chord) all over the neck because you're hearing those notes relative to one another when you play those chords, so they'll really sound "good" anywhere.

    Coming from someone that was a late comer to theory and navigating the fretboard, I think you'd gain a better feel for the fretboard by practicing the major scale, first position, first octave. Instead of continuing the "box" like you usually see it written out, restart the scale as 3 notes per string again once you hit the octave. It moves you up the neck faster and you learn your intervals and why what note (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th,6th,7th) sounds like relative to the root. All other scales are just moving up a fret here or down a fret there, and when you have feeling for how the major scale sounds and feels under your fingers, the more exotic scales you can basically find on your own.

    There are a lot of good lessons out there for people with experience on guitar wanting to use theory concepts to help better navigate what they already know (as opposed to most theory lessons, which are designed for people starting from scratch or designed to apply across every instrument under the sun). If you remember the major scale and thus your intervals, you can carry that over to other instruments pretty easily (worked for me and piano).
    I'll work on the major scale exercise you mentioned in your second paragraph, is there a specific key that you learned it in or did you try it in multiple keys?

    Are there some lessons you'd recommend for someone in my position?
    You miss 100% of the Nope you don't Nope.

    Don't give up Nope.

  2. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    I'll work on the major scale exercise you mentioned in your second paragraph, is there a specific key that you learned it in or did you try it in multiple keys?

    Are there some lessons you'd recommend for someone in my position?
    Well, the "shapes" are the same in any key for a major scale. So, I'd do two things:

    1) Think about the NAMES of the notes as you do this. Like, say the pitch as you play them - "C, D, E," etc, and then "E, F, G," etc. Then "C and E, major, D and F, minor E and G," minor etc, and then "C, E, and G, major, D, F, and A, minor," etc. You'll learn the names of the notes on the fretboard, as well as stat thinking things like "a D minor chord is a D, F, and A, while a D major is D, F#, and A" and that kind of stuff will be in the back of your mind while playing. Thatr's also the kind of stuff that'll let you sit down at a piano and work out a few chords.

    2) Do this in different scales/modes. Go through all the diatonic modes of the major scale - D Dorian would be a good one to tackle next, since it's the same notes, but because you're treating a different pitch as the tonic, the way the chords resolve is going to be different (i.e - you have a minor I, a major IV, and a minor V, which is a very distinctive sound). Also, it's really interesting to see what the harmonic minor scale does while you harmonioze it; while the harmonic minor is a very distinctive sounding melodic scale, the reason for that wide interval jump from the b6 to the M7 is actually because of the way it harmonizes, because it gives you a WAY stronger V-to-I resolution.
    "They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are a bit dicier." - David Foster Wallace

  3. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Ok, I'll write up something for you at some point. But, for now, try this - play a C major scale up the neck on the A strng, 3rd fret C to 15th fret C. Then, go up a third, and on the D string, play a C major scale but from E to E. Now, play them both together. That's a C scale harmonized in 3rds. Now, do the same thing, but go up a 3rd (staying in the key of C) to G, and play a C scale G to G, open G string to 12th fret G. Play all three strings together, and now THAT is a C scale, harmonized into triads. Once you've gotten your mind around that, for bonus points go up another third from G to B, and play the C major scale from B to B, open to 12th fret. Play that whole thing at once, and you now have a C scale harmonized into 7th chords.

    That's basically a data dump version of diatonic tertiary harmony - you build chords by stacking thirds on top of each other from the same scale (a major chord is ropot-third-fifth, but since the major 3rd to perfect 5gh is itself a minor third, you could just as easily look at it as stacking a third on top of a third, as well), and you can harmonize a scale into chords by maintaining that third-to-third relationship but changing the quality of the thirds to fit the scale. Same is then true when you add another third to get 7th chords, a third higher to get 9ths, a third higher to get 11ths, etc.
    This a lot to take in but I'll give it a shot over the weekend, I'll reply in this thread if I get stuck with something. Also, thanks to you and randy for helping me with this, I really appreciate it.

    Sorry, that's a LOT in a small amount of space. I ought to do a video on this stuff, lol. It might be easier.
    That would be much appreciated

  4. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    I'll work on the major scale exercise you mentioned in your second paragraph, is there a specific key that you learned it in or did you try it in multiple keys?
    C is the usual "go to" since it's the classic "Do re mi fa so la ti do" you've heard your entire life, it has no sharps or flats and it's the same point you usually start with on piano (which is kind of "the" analog when it comes to learning music and theory, so you can use the same concept across multiple instruments). Along with it, as you're getting more comfortable, you'll want to name the notes outloud as you're doing it. Like I said, with C it's easy so once that's second nature, you'll move that shape up a couple frets or down and try to name those notes too (which will have sharps/flats).

    The value in that isn't just raw memorization, it's because you'll have to think and look at the fretboard a little to figure out what notes is what, which gets you more acquainted with what's where and why, and it also teaches you what notes fit into what keys (for example, notes in C are: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C [no sharps or flats, as I said] but the notes in E are E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E). So then if you're jamming with someone or you're writing something on your own and you know you're playing in the key of G, you've got a million places that you can logically 'start' or 'finish' your lead/melody lines and you know what notes are in that key, so you can play those notes anywhere on the fretboard and the shapes drop right over them (which works for both individual notes AND making your own chords).

    The CAGED system is essentially trying to do this same thing, but it dumbs down too much to where you have blind spots in your learning and it overcomplicates parts of it to where you can easily get lost.
    Argbadh - RHLCİ

  5. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    2) Do this in different scales/modes. Go through all the diatonic modes of the major scale - D Dorian would be a good one to tackle next, since it's the same notes, but because you're treating a different pitch as the tonic, the way the chords resolve is going to be different (i.e - you have a minor I, a major IV, and a minor V, which is a very distinctive sound). Also, it's really interesting to see what the harmonic minor scale does while you harmonioze it; while the harmonic minor is a very distinctive sounding melodic scale, the reason for that wide interval jump from the b6 to the M7 is actually because of the way it harmonizes, because it gives you a WAY stronger V-to-I resolution.
    Extracting this bit out to reference, relative to what I was talking about. Keep in mind (this is directed at Josh) all that modes are is a fancy word for playing the same scale, just starting at a different point. So like, the major scale (first mode is ionian, but don't even bother yourself with that part of the language right now, just consider it "major scale, first position") is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. The subsequent modes are just 2,3,4,5,6,7,1 or 3,4,5,6,7,1,2, etc and etc. The first shape of the major scale is the essential part, but yeah, as you become acquainted, you'll find out that your licks sound/feel different when you start playing them starting with something other than the root, and that's essentially what different modes ARE.

    As a frame of reference, I couldn't memorize the modes to save my life. I learned the first postion, root to octave up and down. Eventually I mapped out what it looks like if I start on the 2nd and drew it on a fretboard, then I mapped out what it looks like if I started on the 3rd, then the 4th, the 5th, etc. Then I pulled up a chart of all the modes and WOW! I just mapped out every mode of the scale all over the neck. I knew all my modes without even realizing it.

    And as Drew brought up and I mentioned earlier, other scales (more exotic sounding ones) are literally just the major scale but every time you get to a certain number (the 2nd, the 3rd, whatever is defined in the scale) you go up a note or down a note, and just repeat that all over the fretboard everytime you get to that interval again. It still goes back to that fundamental feeling and understanding of the major scale, root position.

  6. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
    This a lot to take in but I'll give it a shot over the weekend, I'll reply in this thread if I get stuck with something. Also, thanks to you and randy for helping me with this, I really appreciate it.

    That would be much appreciated
    Happy to help, man. Maybe on Sunday I can put something together for you, Saturday I'm recording all day with my dad and uncle and Sunday morning I have a long ride planned, but maybe Sunday afternoon I can do a quick video on the basics of harmony.

  7. #15


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    Update: I've learned quite a bit since I made this thread, I've learned the theory of harmony, the intervals that create the different modes, and diminished 7ths. I learned all of that from cassidy's lessons, and have used some of the exercises here to have put them into action.

    I guess I'll use this thread to show my progress over time, ask questions, and request more exercises if you guys wouldn't mind.

  8. #16


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    That's not harmonic minor... What's the point?
    The above comment may or may not be about Morbid Angel.

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