PSA regarding Dynamic Range/Loudness War/Brickwalling
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 8 of 20

Thread: PSA regarding Dynamic Range/Loudness War/Brickwalling

  1. #1


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    PSA regarding Dynamic Range/Loudness War/Brickwalling

    Saw this mentioned in the Big Wreck thread, very handy database. It certainly doesn't contain everything ever recorded, but it is very comprehensive.

    Album list - Dynamic Range Database

    Example:



    It is interesting to note that while Vinyl is largely an obsolete format, it has some benefits, especially when it comes to metal. If they do a separate vinyl mix it often has better dynamic range. Whether it's enough to actually hear, or is worth the other limitations of the format are up to the listener, but for albums that have a dedicated vinyl mix or dedicated vinyl remaster, the dynamic range is usually slightly better. Mainly due to the physical limitations of vinyl and the cutting of grooves and all that, funnily enough, not really a stylistic choice to make the vinyl more DR'd most of the time.

    You can also always download software yourself to find it, if you have the original media. These are user submitted. But very trustworthy, people that care about shit like DR tend to be quite precise. If you care enough to measure the DR of your media, chances are you know how to do it right. If you do it wrong, odds are the other DR obsessed freaks will catch you anyways.

    I believe the commonly accepted scale for DR is 1-20, higher being better, the site only goes up to 14+ though, which is sensible, because even if you can hear those frequencies, odds are you don't have a nice enough set up to convey them.

    Also worth noting that you have to own the media yourself to accurately calculate it, trying to discern DR on something like terrestrial radio (the worst offender) is pointless, because radio stations run their own aggressive limiters on the signal they broadcast. (no idea if satellite radio does the same thing, not a satellite radio guy). As far as things like youtube algorithms go, that's a whole other discussion.

  2. Thanked by:


  3. Remove Advertisements
    MetalGuitarist.org
    Advertisements
     

  4. #2


    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Location: Herndon, VA
    ME: Jackson Soloist
    Rig: Fractal Audio Axe-FX II

    iTrader: 4 (100%)

    I've seen a lot of the criticism of the Iron Maiden remasters for being compressed, but they are at least listenable. The Judas Priest remasters are an atrocity--which is easily remedied because the old '80s Columbia CDs are cheap and easily available on the used market. The '80s EMI CDs of the Iron Maiden catalog are kind of hard to find, now.

    I agree about vinyl being a good medium for metal. They are somewhat compressed (vinyl masters have to be, and that's where the whole idea started), but impart a pleasing midrange punch that's a stark contrast to the horrible smiley-face EQ pattern that's applied to modern masters.

    For newer music, I wish bands would do what Dream Theater was doing for awhile--release compressed mp3s for the earbuds-on-the-subway crowd while also releasing uncompressed masters in hi-res. CDs should always have high dynamics. Why bother releasing brickwalled CDs? The only people still buying CDs are us old fuckers who care somewhat about audio quality.

  5. #3


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonplayer View Post
    I've seen a lot of the criticism of the Iron Maiden remasters for being compressed, but they are at least listenable. The Judas Priest remasters are an atrocity--which is easily remedied because the old '80s Columbia CDs are cheap and easily available on the used market. The '80s EMI CDs of the Iron Maiden catalog are kind of hard to find, now.

    I agree about vinyl being a good medium for metal. They are somewhat compressed (vinyl masters have to be, and that's where the whole idea started), but impart a pleasing midrange punch that's a stark contrast to the horrible smiley-face EQ pattern that's applied to modern masters.

    For newer music, I wish bands would do what Dream Theater was doing for awhile--release compressed mp3s for the earbuds-on-the-subway crowd while also releasing uncompressed masters in hi-res. CDs should always have high dynamics. Why bother releasing brickwalled CDs? The only people still buying CDs are us old fuckers who care somewhat about audio quality.
    The only catalogue of an artist I have multiple versions for all the albums are Black Sabbath, can't really decide if the Rules of Hell and Black Box Rhino Re-masters are better, but they are pretty good.

    I've got the 90s Sanctuary Iron Maiden CD releases for everything up to and including Fear of the Dark, which sound great, the ones with the cardboard sleeves that form up a cool graphic if you put them in order on a shelf, I know they did newer remasters and stuff, but the 98 Sanctuary ones sound awesome enough to me.

    As far as Judas Priest goes, I've got the remastered Bonus track containing ones for most of the albums, though I have some weird Japanese version of Defenders that was $40 on amazon which I had to get because at the time no place had the regular version in stock.

    Depends on genre though. For more extreme stuff with lower tuned guitars, I don't really care that much, it probably doesn't even have multiple versions out there. Besides all the big bands like Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, etc. etc. the only ones where I care about the issuing/mix/master whatever is stuff like Helloween and Savatage. Helloween in particular had some CDs that sounded really good for the Keeper albums and that classic period. A lot of the 80s Elektra stuff also sounds fine to me, and is sort of the "definitive versions". Riot, Metallica, Dokken, shit like that. The Elektra CDs I bought off Amazon sound great.

    The Elektra CD versions of albums like Back for the Attack and shit like that are the definitive ones to me and always sound good. CDs on the Sanctuary label are also always quite good. They've done quite a few besides Iron Maiden that are the best versions of certain releases.

  6. Remove Advertisements
    MetalGuitarist.org
    Advertisements
     

  7. #4


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    As far as the Black Sabbath ones go, the Rhino Remasters on the Black Box are great, but I prefer the original CD versions of Dehumanizer and Heaven and Hell. Not that Rules of Hell isn't also a nice box set if you want to get all the Dio era albums in one place.

    There's not enough money in the other singer eras to do remastered/box sets on those unfortunately so stuff like Eternal Idol and Headless Cross and Tyr I just have whatever is availabile. And it's pretty common knowledge that every true ultra fan has to have the unmixed Demo versions of Born Again, which most like better than the "official release".

  8. #5


    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Location: Herndon, VA
    ME: Jackson Soloist
    Rig: Fractal Audio Axe-FX II

    iTrader: 4 (100%)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCoy View Post
    As far as the Black Sabbath ones go, the Rhino Remasters on the Black Box are great, but I prefer the original CD versions of Dehumanizer and Heaven and Hell. Not that Rules of Hell isn't also a nice box set if you want to get all the Dio era albums in one place.

    There's not enough money in the other singer eras to do remastered/box sets on those unfortunately so stuff like Eternal Idol and Headless Cross and Tyr I just have whatever is availabile. And it's pretty common knowledge that every true ultra fan has to have the unmixed Demo versions of Born Again, which most like better than the "official release".
    The Black Box versions are awful. I haven't heard the newest U.S. masterings on these on Rhino, but reviews are that these are brickwalled to shit, too.

    The ones to get for most albums are either the original '80s Warner CDs or the European deluxe editions from about a decade ago on Sanctuary.

    --Black Sabbath (Sanctuary reissue)
    --Paranoid (Sanctuary--if you have a surround system, this is cool because the deluxe version includes the quad mixes that have some big differences from the stereo)
    --Master of Reality (Sanctuary)
    --Vol. 4 (Sanctuary)
    --Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (Sanctuary, but the channels are reversed. '80s Warner is bright)
    --Sabotage (Sanctuary, but a little bass-heavy)
    --Technical Ecstasy ('80s Warner)
    --Never Say Die ('80s Warner CD is painfully bright. My old early '80s vinyl sounded good. The old West German '80s CD on Vertigo is apparently the one to get. Good luck finding a copy).
    --Heaven & Hell (Sanctuary is *amazing*. The only good digital version I've heard)
    --Mob Rules ('80s Warner CD is amazing--way better than my 1981-82 vinyl pressing, actually)
    --Live Evil ('80s Warner 2CD, probably--not a great mix in any case)
    --Born Again (Sanctuary is too bass-heavy; 1996 Castle remaster from UK isn't bad).
    --Seventh Star (either '80s CD or Sanctuary is fine--Sanctuary has bonus live tracks with Ray Gillen)
    --Eternal Idol (either '80s CD or Sanctuary is fine--Sanctuary also has rough mixes with Ray Gillen)
    --No remasters for the other Tony Martin-era titles
    --Dehumanizer (original CD is fine--no need for a remaster)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCoy View Post
    As far as Judas Priest goes, I've got the remastered Bonus track containing ones for most of the albums, though I have some weird Japanese version of Defenders that was $40 on amazon which I had to get because at the time no place had the regular version in stock.
    Do yourself a favor and pick up the '80s Columbia CDs of everything except Sin After Sin and Hell Bent For Leather. On those two, the original mixes are so thin and dull that the brickwalling and smiley-face EQ on the remasters actually makes them sound a little better!

    I can't believe how bad the remaster of Painkiller is. Not to mention the fact that it was digitally recorded and released on CD from day one. It doesn't need a fucking remaster! The original CD sounds great, to my ears.

  9. #6


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonplayer View Post
    The Black Box versions are awful.
    It depends on the album, I'd say, the remaster suits some albums better than others. The Black Box version of Paranoid is definitely noticeably inferior and kills a lot of the vibe.

    I think the Black Box version of Vol. 4 is great actually. I like the Black Box version of tracks like Wheels of Confusion, which is one of my favorite Iommi solos.

    As far as the Priest one goes, pretty much everything after (and including) Turbo resulted in their guitar sound getting more digital sounding. Painkiller was one they were already way in digitech territory, I don't mind it sounding different then Stained Class.

    Priest has several awesome live albums. I like "Priest....Live!" a lot, and "Live Vengeance '82" is one of my favorite Live DVDs. Think that's in Memphis or something.



    Honestly, sometimes which issuing I prefer depends on speaker/amplifier setup. Big 70s style speakers (which I primarily listen on) definitely sound best for certain kinds of mixes, sometimes something that sounds bad on those will sound better on headphones and vice versa.

    As far as the market in general goes, not as many people are running discrete amplifiers into unpowered speakers as when those albums were originally put out. Size of the speaker matters too. Some sound better on bookshelf size speakers and suck on full sized setups.

    Dehumanizer is one of my favorite Black Sabbath albums, but I'm not crazy about the sound on any version of the album, I like the live versions on Heaven and Hell's "Live at Radio City Music Hall" a lot better. In fact, that blows "Live Evil" away. "After All (The Dead" in particular isn't as good on the studio version of Dehumanizer as it is on the Radio City one.

  10. #7


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    But yeah, generally speaking, the remasters a lot of the time on the albums discussed here take into account the difference in how people listen to music. A lot of people are fine on listening to headphones not drive by a discrete amp or powered speakers.

    Albums like the older versions of Heaven and Hell (which I think sounds superior to the remaster) need set ups with proper speakers and discrete amplifiers to really shine. Trends in mixing and mastering are in part due to the fact not as many people are listening on set ups with a bunch of discrete components anymore.

  11. #8


    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Location: Glasgow - Scotland
    ME: Suhr M5
    MB: Squire Jazz
    Rig: Mesa Mk V + Axe FX II

    iTrader: 3 (100%)

    I've not read this whole thread so my points may have been covered but my experience of vinyl is that it has it's own sound and that tends to have more low end response than what you get on a CD or mp3. Generally in extreme metal where vinyl is still a really popular medium, bands will either have a separate vinyl mix or in fact, mix specifically for vinyl. In that case the CDs tend to sound like shit.

    Mp3 and CD formats tend to have more chance of being brick walled to fuck and vinyl generally always has a pretty pleasant sound.

Similar Threads

  1. Happy Dynamic Range Day!
    By Thomas in forum General Music Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-22-2013, 03:37 PM
  2. Vox VL1 Dynamic Looper
    By ohio_eric in forum Guitar: Gear Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-30-2011, 06:04 PM
  3. TORTURE KILLER Signs With DYNAMIC ARTS RECORDS
    By Metal-Bot in forum Metal News Feeds
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-04-2008, 08:11 PM

Tags for this Thread


Fractal Audio Systems  Shred Training  Angel Vivaldi
Bowes Guitarworks  NumbSkull Audio Production



VigLink badge