NGD: Kleinberger Build (Uggo-nomic Content) - Page 4
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Thread: NGD: Kleinberger Build (Uggo-nomic Content)

  1. #25


    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Location: Herndon, VA
    ME: Jackson Soloist
    Rig: Fractal Audio Axe-FX II

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    I had an S trem on my Carvin HHX and it is still up there as one of my favorite trems. Lots of bad reviews of the R-trem but I didn't hate the one on my GR4, the biggest issue was fixing the leaning posts (which the J-custom unit does).
    That's why I asked. Every R-Trem I've ever played on a used guitar had bent posts, seemingly. If J-Custom has fixed that, then it's a quality unit. Might even be better than the S-Trem in some ways, since the "return to zero" quality of the S-Trem can be unstable just like on a Kahler (which is basically the same design concept).

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  3. #26


    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Location: Manhattan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    Thanks! Cost vs necessity more than anything else.

    I had an S trem on my Carvin HHX and it is still up there as one of my favorite trems. Lots of bad reviews of the R-trem but I didn't hate the one on my GR4, the biggest issue was fixing the leaning posts (which the J-custom unit does).

    The original planning and woodwork on this was done when I had the GR4 so I could use the parts off of it for fitment, so it was originally routed for an R anyway just because it's what I had on hand. I ended up loving this build so much, a second with an S is potentially in the cards.
    Interesting about the leaning posts! My old Spirit had them too. If they fixed that, they've got a great (albeit somewhat stiff) trem system.
    Too much focus leads to tunnel vision
    Too much faith leads to religion
    Too much knowledge leads to confusion
    Too many guitar lessons lead to jazz-fusion

  4. #27


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

    iTrader: 15 (100%)

    I was always under the impression "ergonomic" meant "sacrifices aesthetics for practicality and comfort".

    But sometime around when this shape was developed they changed the definition to, "Literally only works when played in seated classical position with a raised left leg and a footstool".

    On the plus side, since it doesn't have a headstock you will have to devise a wall mount method where it rests laterally, and you kind of have a fish like color going on there. So that's cool, if you are into sports fishing. It kind of looks like a particularly ugly fish.



    +1 on EMGs being ridiculously thick though. Been there. The 89 and the 81 TWX are both obscenely thick, I've had to scrap multiple plans for pickups before because the EMG was literally so thick there was no way it would work.

    That being said, the "dual modes" are actually two pickups, not a coil split like passives, so it kind of makes sense. And they sound awesome.

    As far as the shape goes. This looks like the product of some feelgood discovery channel special where some Jane Goodall like figure re-abilitated a blind ape to design guitar shapes and this is the first thing it came up with.

    Then the shape becomes impressive, by regular guitar standards it's like, "Holy fuck is that terrible".

    But if you preface it by saying, "This shape was developed by a blind ape who was rescued when his parents were killed by poachers and was taught to design guitar shapes though it's not clear if he really understands what a guitar is".

    If you preface it like that it's like, "Well, this is a scientific achievement, given the circumstances the shape is really rather quite good".

    I was going to say it looks like a shape designed by a computer AI program that designs guitar shapes based on a large amount of input data. But realistically, no AI would design a shape that bad.

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  6. #28


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

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    Also, for an ergonomic shape, that has a mysterious lack of Dimarzio Cliplocks. The most efficient and comfortable strap.

    Unless if the definition of ergonomics has also been expanded to include, "A Schaller strap button digging into your chest".

  7. #29


    Join Date: Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonplayer View Post
    That's why I asked. Every R-Trem I've ever played on a used guitar had bent posts, seemingly. If J-Custom has fixed that, then it's a quality unit. Might even be better than the S-Trem in some ways, since the "return to zero" quality of the S-Trem can be unstable just like on a Kahler (which is basically the same design concept).
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Interesting about the leaning posts! My old Spirit had them too. If they fixed that, they've got a great (albeit somewhat stiff) trem system.
    I've had two guitars with R-trems, two sets of leaning studs but I've heard that occurrence is semi specific to when they were built and how they've been used. On the GR4, I was annoyed enough with it that I got a body hammer and tapped the studs straight. Wasn't hard either but I guess that tells you something about how sturdy they were made.

    As far as a long term solution, the JCustom R-trem was originally advertised with extra attention to the studs, so we'll see how they stand up long term. Honestly, with a steady supply of non-"Overlord of Music" trems at $160 (vs $399 for the S-trem YIKES), it's hard to say no to even if you hypothetically had to swap the whole unit down the road. HOWEVER, I messaged Bernd a few years ago and he seemed to still be selling his upgraded studs. They're not listed on their website but I wouldn't be surprised if HeadlessUSA sells them as well, and I know Ed Roman *lightning cracks and evil laughter* claim they sell them too. It's not the fatal issue it once, supposing it does happen.

    I think Josh's point is the bigger issue. This trem is CRAZY stiff right now, I'm sure in no small part because I use it with 8s. I'll see what happens after I break the spring in more. Barring the spring somehow getting softer, the Achilles heel right now is the 'one size fits all' spring choice. I'm assuming they're repurposed from another industry so theres a possible avenue. They look like valve lifter springs from an engine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCoy View Post
    "Literally only works when played in seated classical position with a raised left leg and a footstool".
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCoy View Post
    Also, for an ergonomic shape, that has a mysterious lack of Dimarzio Cliplocks. The most efficient and comfortable strap.

    Unless if the definition of ergonomics has also been expanded to include, "A Schaller strap button digging into your chest".
    Greg gonna Greg, so I'll take that with a grain of salt but for anyone following at home, the guitar balances well in traditional and classic positions.

    Haven't tackled how it goes onto a hanger but it works fine in a floor stand it you seat it off centered. I was worried it would have to sit on the floor or on a specialized stand but nope.

    As far strap holders go, I'm just using a super oversized strap pin (big enough to fit a #10-24 machine screw through it) and a strap with a stiff end on it. I don't use locks on anything I don't spin but Cliplock would be a good call if you were gonna use one.

    After playing it for a week, I'm still really enjoying the shape. As far as the guitar overall and what's noticeably different than my other traditional stuff, one would be the neck placement. The leg rest sits further back than pretty much anything else I have, which moves the guitar neck out, which puts the low frets further away but the high frets right underneath you. I kinda like it better that way but it takes getting used to.

    Second item would be the Moses headless neck with the zero fret. Action gets just impossibly low, assuming you're into that. It's actually lower than I want it to be (like, sub 2mm at fret 24) because I need to do a bridge/saddle adjustment, but still, the capacity for low without buzz is just super unusual if you havent tried one.

    On the minuses, first thing would be the weight along with the headlessness. I mentioned this in my ZT3 thread but being headless and heavy-ish, you pick it up and there's no headstock to butt up against so you're gripping pretty tight to keep it from slipping out of your hand. GR4 wasn't much better. The two solutions, one would be a lighter body (the Holdsworth was absolutely perfect weight) or some girth-depth behind the headpiece (like on a Strandberg) or ideally, both.

    The other issue specific to the design are the lack of case options. Ed Roman *door creaks open and bats fly about the room* claims to sell Klein gigbags, I didn't even stop to look at the asking price because I'm sure they're obscene and I dunno how close my measurements would need to be. I'm definitely going to make *something* but what, I dunno yet.

    Only other complaint as of now is, sigh, the Moses neck. All of them I've had were absolute solid players, great fretwork and workmanship but the fucking anchors will be the death of me. No matter how accurate straight you put them in when you get it, when you actually got to bolt it to the guitar, they cross thread and try to come back out when you go to remove the neck bolts. Every.Fucking.One. (this is my fifth). The brass inserts don't bite the graphite enough to suit me.

    Based on the so-so tension I got screwing in the back screws the second time I attached the neck, I'm sure the anchors aren't in all the way. That's likely half the reason my bridge/saddle height is a little off (like the back of the neck is floating 1/16"). Next time I have a string change, I'll take the neck off and 'thread lock' the anchors in. If that doesn't work, I'll epoxy them. If that doesn't work, I'll fill the holes with epoxy, predrill and just use regular wood screws into them.

    Like I said, the construction itself and fretwork is top notch but the anchors were a design flaw from the beginning.
    Argbadh - RHLC©

  8. #30


    Join Date: Feb 2010
    Location: Laramie, Wyoming
    ME: Jackson AT Pro
    Rig: Rivera K Tre

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    Greg gonna Greg, so I'll take that with a grain of salt but for anyone following at home, the guitar balances well in traditional and classic positions.
    Hey man, everyone else chickened out on the "Provide Randy with a comprehensive list of all the things wrong with his new guitar he may be excited about" with vague statements and GIFs.

    Besides, no one here is new to this, everyone knows that the whole reason ergonomic guitars exist is only 40% because they "make sense" and 60% because the people who design and buy them want to be like, "YOU FOOLISH LUDDITES, YOU MOCK MY SPACE AGE GUITAR AT YOUR OWN RISK, THIS IS THE INSTRUMENTAL EQUIVALENT OF DARWINS THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND YOU ASSURE YOUR PLACE IN HISTORY AMONGST THE FOOLS BY DOUBTING IT. NO ONE BEFORE ME HAS THOUGHT TO COMBINE ART AND SCIENCE. NO ONE."

    People who do the whole ergonomic guitars thing want to make a speech like a Dan Brown villain about how art and science are two sides of the same coin and they are a god damn visionary, and the ends justify the means and they may have stuck anti-matter under the Vatican and hired an offensively cliched Arab character to assassinate old white men, which might look a little extreme, but it was a small price to pay for entrance into this Brave New World.

    Besides, we all know that by insulting features of your new guitar I am actually giving you a platform to rebut my points and brag about how sick its features are. People who design and buy "ergonomic guitars" crave controversy. They don't actually do it solely because the design makes sense. It's mostly about making a statement. They want people to doubt and insult them so they look like trailblazers.

    I definitely raised the value of your guitar by at least $400-600 by making it look like it was so advanced it left people in states of mind scorched pearl clutching.

    Besides, it's not like I'm a dick, I'll be the first to admit that is a very nice chair you have it positioned on for photos.

  9. #31


    Join Date: Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    I think Josh's point is the bigger issue. This trem is CRAZY stiff right now, I'm sure in no small part because I use it with 8s. I'll see what happens after I break the spring in more. Barring the spring somehow getting softer, the Achilles heel right now is the 'one size fits all' spring choice. I'm assuming they're repurposed from another industry so theres a possible avenue. They look like valve lifter springs from an engine?
    So, I was up till 4am doing a deep dive on this one. Found a good article with links to the springs they use from the factory, with all the important metrics. Looks like I can source some springs that will fit in the cavity and have lower 'spring rates', which should hypothetically soften the trem action. I'll report back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCoy View Post
    trailblazers
    I'm not sure a 50 year old design that makes people grimace is my definition of trailblazing.

  10. #32


    Join Date: Sep 2008
    Location: Somerville, Ma
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    Hey, not my thing at all, but I think that's cool as hell and it looks well built. Right on, man!
    "They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are a bit dicier." - David Foster Wallace

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