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Hates Richie Kotzen
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
*Spoiler Warning: Spoilers ahead, I don't want to put everything I write inside the tags, so if you haven't finished it (or any of the other books) read at your own peril. Lets still spoiler the really spoilery stuff from book 5, but I don't want to have to spoiler tag everything that happened in previous books too.

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....10% in, really fucking awesome so far! :D

I thought it came out on the 15th, but it actually came out on the 12th. So when I checked last night and noticed I was wrong I kindled the shit out of it immediately. $16 is a bit steep for a Kindle book IMO, but its worth it.
 

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Wirelessly posted (Metal Shop \m/: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I'm done with it, so I'll wait until you are, but what was I wrong about?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I thought you were in the "This is gonna suck!" camp.

Did you like it? I'm about ~30% of the way in so far, and I'm really enjoying it.
 

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I don't want to say anything until you're done, and I REALLY suggest you stay away from threads about it because there's a pretty huge GRRM-style "holy fuck" moment in it.

I liked it better than AFFC, yeah. I don't recall every saying it was going to suck. I definitely said that AFFC was crap, and that I had low expectations for this. You can't really say I'm wrong until you finish it though. ;)
 

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My spoiler-free opinion, which you shouldn't click until you finish the book anyway. Someone else said this on another board, and it sums up my feelings on it pretty much the same.

I think the story was great. The problem I think people are having is that you just read a 1000 pages and you don't feel like you've really gotten anywhere still in the overall story arc. Yes some things happened and yes the story is more advanced than when left off at AFfC. The problem is that the main characters that we cherish just don't seem like they've gotten anywhere. Just more misery for the Starks and the other characters that we feel are in the right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
75% of the way through it so far. Love it so far.

I agree that it doesn't seem like the plot is making a lot of progress in some of the story arcs. GRRM seems like he would rather introduce new story arcs. Which is fine by me, if it weren't for the fact that he will probably die in <5 years. Really hope he finishes up before he bites it.

As he's gotten older it also seems like his sex scenes have gotten more demented. :lol: If I have to read about a girls "small, firm breasts" again I am going to gouge my fucking eyes out with a cocktail fork.
 

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Yeah, I am not at all a fan of his borderline Chris Hansen tendencies at all. It makes me uncomfortable every time I get to one of the passages, honestly.

I liked this book, but, if you read my spoiler, my opinion stands. It's a great book, and a great story. More character development is always good. I just wish something actually was resolved, or at least moved forward in this book.
 

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*Spoiler Warning: Spoilers ahead, I don't want to put everything I write inside the tags, so if you haven't finished it (or any of the other books) read at your own peril.

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:lol: Chris Hansen approach. My main complaint about the sex scenes is mainly that, by and large, they've gotten formulaic. Some do make you uncomfortable, but thats the mark of good writing IMO. GRRM is definitely a dirty old man though. I wonder how awkward family dinners are in his house. :lol:

The gritty aspect is one of the main strengths of the books though. I still feels like he occasionally pulls out a sex scene that is really good or advances the plot. The Ramsay Bolton/Theon Greyjoy/Jeyne Poole wedding night scene was quite good in my opinion. Partly because it didn't follow "Generic GRRM Sex Scene Alpha" model of...

-Describe boobs. Is women a whore? If so boobs=large, if not boobs=small and firm or "like apples" (or some other GRRM type shit).
-Describe nipples. Relate size to another character.
-Describe color of everyone's pubic hair in relation to their other hair.
-Describe number of "thrusts".

^That is the shit I am tired of. :lol: In the first Jaime chapter (when he walks in on the commander laying siege), GRRM follows that model so exactly its just boring. He still has the capacity to pull out something cool though. The "eating his heirs" Cersei scene (from book 4 I believe, might have been 3, been a while since I read them) is still one of the best scenes in the entire series.

The main weakness of the books (if it can be called that) IMO. Is that whenever he writes a POV character, even if they are a villain, he makes them seem likable and you end up sympathizing with them. The chapters at the end of book 4, and the chapters in A Dance.... ended up making me feel kind of bad for Cersei. Always interesting to see Tyrion waffle back and forth between hero/anti hero/villain as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I'm at about ~83% of the way done now. Gonna finish tonight. I would advise anyone who hasn't read book 4 in a while to brush up on Wikipedia. I usually have a great memory for books, and its only been about a year since I read the first four books last, but the plots are so complex that you WILL forget whats happening in tons of places. I didn't brush up, and I was left scratching my head in lots of places, or not remembering who a minor character was.
 

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Grabbed it on Friday night after a long, bad week of work, and kind of treated myself by spending the whole weekend with a work of fiction. Started it just after midnight on Friday, finished it just after midnight on Saturday.

Overall, pretty solid.

With you guys on the sex scenes. To the list of previously mentioned quibbles, I'll add to it the fact that every single sexual encounter, or threat thereof, basically reads "blah blah cock blah cock blah blah cunt cunt bal cock blah blah blah cunt cock cock blah cunt nipples." I mean, come on, man. In the interest of literary pride, see if you can throw another word or two in there. Even GRRM's sex scenes could use a bit more variety - I shudder to think how boring his sex life must be. Can't characters maybe just not fuck for a book or two?

Kind of bummed about Jon Snow, but I should have seen that coming. He was almost too "conventional" a modern hero - the bastard son, kind of a family reject, democratically handed a position of power, and then challenging all the cultural norms for the good of other people. Might as well just draw a bulls-eye and get it over with, but the "et tu, Brute" echoes were a bit much. It's also, from a pragmatic standpoint, too little too late. Why kill off Snow when you're a couple hundred Night Watch with a couple thousand wildlings on the same side of the wall as you? At that point, you HAVE to deal with them, Snow or no Snow. It's so obvious, in fact, it wouldn't shock me if he somehow survived.

Add to that it felt forced - no "main' characters have died lately, so it's like he had to hurry up and kill one at the end. You sort of feel like he's running out of characters to kill? His biggest problem, IMO, is he's not really writing in new characters to replace the old - I could be missing someone, but I don't believe a single major storyline has really come together around a character we didn't know after the first book. He's running out of options, he wrote himself into a corner.

Also, it's beginning to bug me how GRRM uses slightly misspelled english words to add, idunno, a sense of place, I suppose - "Ser" rather than "Sir" as a title for nights, "Jaime" rather than "Jamie" or "Jayne" rather than "Jane," "southroner" rather than "southerner," et all. I thought the only contemporary guy who's gotten this right was Robert Jordan, who just made shit up and provided a glassary.

All that said, well, I ripped through nearly 1,000 pages in 48 hours. That says a lot, I think. :yesway:
 

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I'm with most people, no way is Jon Snow dead. I think he did it for shock value for just those reasons, Drew. Melisandre will "resurrect" him somehow.

And yeah, his sex scenes make me uncomfortable. There's just no need for them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Heres what I posted in the "funny pictures" thread and I'm pretty sure this is how it will turn out

There is absolutely no way Jon Snow is dead. I still firmly maintain that he is the main character of the entire series. At the very least, there is no way GRRM would have killed him off without explaining the mysterious circumstances surrounding his birth. My money's on him being revived somehow by Melisandre, as it has already been established with Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Stark that priests of R'hollor can revive the dead.

Either that or he will come back like Coldhands (who I think is Benjin Stark, as long as we are on the subject of speculation).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'm with most people, no way is Jon Snow dead. I think he did it for shock value for just those reasons, Drew. Melisandre will "resurrect" him somehow.

And yeah, his sex scenes make me uncomfortable. There's just no need for them.
Yep, I'm not saying GRRM will never kill of Jon Snow, but there is no way he will do it before the uncertain matter of his parentage gets cleared up. (Of course he might do it just to fuck with everybody. :lol: But I consider that a very slim chance) Its been established for a couple books now that Red Priests can effectively reverse death, and Melisandre just happens to be up there with him and she definitely has vested interests in helping him out.

The only character I was dissapointed wasn't covered in Dance was Sandor Clegane. Who is my favorite character in the whole series.

And littlefinger of course. :lol: Wonder what he's up to?
 

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Yep, I'm not saying GRRM will never kill of Jon Snow, but there is no way he will do it before the uncertain matter of his parentage gets cleared up. (Of course he might do it just to fuck with everybody. :lol: But I consider that a very slim chance) Its been established for a couple books now that Red Priests can effectively reverse death, and Melisandre just happens to be up there with him and she definitely has vested interests in helping him out.

The only character I was dissapointed wasn't covered in Dance was Sandor Clegane. Who is my favorite character in the whole series.

And littlefinger of course. :lol: Wonder what he's up to?
Yup. So, was I right, now that you finished it?

http://www.metalguitarist.org/forum...ris-wrong-about-dance-dragons.html#post438631

Nutshell: Decent book, better than the last one by far.

Malazan > This series all day long.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I could be missing someone, but I don't believe a single major storyline has really come together around a character we didn't know after the first book.
Uh, Drew are we reading the same series?

There have been so many great characters introduced in later books. Most of them with "new" storylines to accompany them. Sure, I guess you could say its all part of the "main" plot, but he writes on so many fronts that it feels like a hundred different plots at times. To name a few of the characters that are becoming really interesting that were introduced/fleshed out in later books.

-Wildlings
-Ironborn/House Greyjoy
-Brienne of Tarth
-Jon Connington and Aegon (fresh out of the new one)
-The Last Greenseer/Bran arc
-House Martell arc
-Jaqen H'ghar/The Faceless Men/Arya plot arc

If anything I would say his problem is the opposite, introducing too many plot lines before he can wrap the more longstanding ones up. Its sure gonna be interesting to see how he ties all of it together in the last book.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yup. So, was I right, now that you finished it?

http://www.metalguitarist.org/forum...ris-wrong-about-dance-dragons.html#post438631

Nutshell: Decent book, better than the last one by far.

Malazan > This series all day long.
I got a third of the way into Malazan and I had no idea what the fuck is going on. Part of the great thing about GRRM is that he introduces a lot of characters/concepts but he makes it all seem natural. The first hundred pages of Gardens of The Moon throws shit at you so fast that I couldn't make heads nor tails of it, and I regularly read complex fantasy/sci fi shit, so its not like I'm not used to it.

I've heard from you and others though that the first book isn't indicative of the rest of the series. So I might give it another shot sometime.
 

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Nutshell: Decent book, better than the last one by far.

Malazan > This series all day long.
You're crazy. :nuts:

ASoIAF: 98/100
MBotF: 81/100

This series > Malazan. Any time. Anywhere.

Martin is 10000000x better of a writer than Erikson. God, Erikson's writing style pisses me off. :lol: While on the other hand, Martin has one of the best writing styles in fantasy's history. Erikson is good because of his ideas and story, but Martin's ideas and story are way better.

In fact, the only thing Erikson does better is his writing speed.

... but, of course, Martin is a slow writer and Erikson is a speed demon... :ugh:
 

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Respectfully disagree, though my Malazan reference was a bit of a plant. :lol:

This series is 3 great books, one book of filler, and the current book which is a good read but nothing groundbreaking or worth all the blind praise showered on it. ASOIAF is more accessible because it's less complex, and easy to read. GRRM's world is tiny, as his his cast of characters. Malazan is fucking enormous, yet characters like Quick Ben, Kalam, Fiddler, Hedge, etc are all just as personable as any in ASOIAF. With the exception of Tyrion, I also think that Kelsier is better than any character in ASOIAF.

We're 5 books into Martin's "ideas" and we don't even know what the hell they are yet, other than he likes to kill POV characters off for shock value. What actually happened other than (The Big Thing At The End) in ADWD? Where did the story progress? Oh, that's right, it didn't. It's more of the same.

Zero things that GRRM has written even come close to touching the Chain of Dogs. Erikson is wordy, that's his style, but as a counterpoint, Erikson doesn't spend a dozen pages at a time describing underage sex scenes in creepy fashion either. If you think that's one of "the best writing styles in fantasy's history" you're entirely entitled to that opinion. He's a great writer, no doubt, but the fact remains that his story, 7 (?) years later is still going nowhere. Return of the Crimson Guard is better than any ASOIAF book, hands down.

I got a third of the way into Malazan and I had no idea what the fuck is going on.
Clearly, you aren't high-brow enough to absorb something as dense as Malazan. Don't blame the author if you can't keep up with us intellectuals. BRB, selecting cognac.
 
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