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So I have the Droid. We have now gotten a couple Droid Incredibles at work, and now a Droid X. My wife just got a Samsung Galaxy S.

They're all different, and not in a good way. The Windows comparison is due to the shit bloatware these phones are coming with, and they're not always easy to get rid of. The Galaxy S in particular is ridiculously loaded.

The Linux comparison because out of 4 different phones, every single one has a different interface.

These phones need the ability to go back to a plain jane Android install, because honestly Sense, Blur, and whatever the fuck is on the Galaxy all suck.

Despite that, they're all nice phones, particuarly the Galaxy, who's screen is beautiful. My wife has ditched her ipod touch and just uses her Galaxy with Doubletwist. It's really damn fast too; all 3 of the newer phones slay my Droid, despite my Droid having Froyo 2.2.

 

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This was kinda the whole point of android when it was introduced though.

If you don't like all the custom firmwares, then tell everyone to get a Nexus One.

It does kinda suck that the manufacturers are not giving the option to go back to stock Android, but I can't really blame them considering the time it takes to design their firmware in the first place.

I would, but the N1 is gone. To my knowledge, there is no "pure" Google phone out there currently, on any carrier in the US. Hence why my wife bought the Galaxy S (which she does like quite a bit, however). The Droid is/was pure Google, but the D2 that replaces it runs MotoBlur, which is IMO ghey.

It is not a Linux/Windows hybrid. It is linux, pure and simple. There is no definitive "linux user experience". GNU/Linux is a set of tools and a kernel. Android is just another linux distribution, and much like Ubuntu, there are a million versions of it.

You miss the point, sir. When I mentioned Windows, I was referring the Android phones coming with tons of bloatware bullshit from the OEM's, much of which is difficult to take off. For example, my wife's phone came with at least 5 different apps that you cannot take off via application control, and all are inferior to free stuff available in the Market. Useless crap.

And I never said there was a "definitive" user experience for Linux. However there is for Google, as defined by the Nexus One and first Motorola Droid. It's called a "Google Experience" phone.

And btw, Ubuntu as distributed by Canonical in default form in GNOME is the definitive Linux experience. Well......in my opinion.

 

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Sense can now be turned off. That's the way I imagine android is going to be going, have different interfaces optional. I think 3.0 will also eliminate a lot of the custom UI's. Even 2.2 does a lot to eliminate that, 2.2 is really nice.

I agree, 2.2 is quite nice. And:

1. It would be wonderful if you could turn off these shit custom UI's in favor of "vanilla" Android, and
2. It would be wonderful if you could easily remove the shit bloatware that's starting to come on these phones.

Those two things, and Android's damn near perfect, except the cut and paste. Even the keyboard on these newer models is far more usable than my Droid is/was.

 

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I agree, 2.2 is quite nice. And:

1. It would be wonderful if you could turn off these shit custom UI's in favor of "vanilla" Android, and
2. It would be wonderful if you could easily remove the shit bloatware that's starting to come on these phones.

Those two things, and Android's damn near perfect, except the cut and paste. Even the keyboard on these newer models is far more usable than my Droid is/was.

I haven't had a problem with cut and paste on my Droid, but I keep hearing about the issue. What is it exactly?

2.2 is terrific :agreed:

And the new Droid 2's keyboard and design is quite an improvement over the first one.

Compared to iOS, c&p on any Android device I've used is crap, to put it mildly. The D2's keyboard is much better. I'd love one.

 

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I don't see this as a problem. Just nice to have choices

I agree on that one though! I'm not a fan of sense -_-
Not that it's a big problem for me or I would have rooted it already

But I guess having launcher pro running on top of sense theoretically makes the phone slower? Not that I've noticed it, but still. Should have the choice to go back to plain android. I would have done it right away if I had the choice.

That's the problem though, isn't it? I don't have a choice. If I buy a Droid X, I am stuck with Blur. If I buy an HTC, I am stuck with Sense. Unless I root it, I don't have a choice at all. There are no Google Experience phones currently in production.

And no, rooting it is not a satisfactory answer. Sure, for a tech-saavy user it's not a problem, however for someone like my wife who just wants to use the damn phone, but doesn't like the BS add-ons, they don't want to root it, they just want the option to remove it.

 

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Motorola has said they will be abandoning Blur, plus you can change the default launcher on the Moto phones to something other than the Blur launcher, then you aren't stuck with Blur. Changing the stock launcher is as simple as downloading a new one off the marketplace.

Okay, so that's one out of three, and most people don't know what a "launcher" is, or what to search for.

My point is, I can see why you guys think Android is great, however if you look at it from the viewpoint of a user, it's not quite that simple. They just get frustrated.

Can I handle rooting it, changing this, deleting that, etc.? Obviously. But users like us are the minority of the 5mil a month they're now claiming, not the majority.

 

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My mom is the epitome of a user, and she's got an HTC Droid Eris and absolutely loves it. Different strokes for different folks. She doesn't have to do(nor does she know how) all of the things I've done to my phone for it to do everything she needs and more. Also, when she got it, it only had Android 1.6 on it, and she was never effected by it. She loves Sense too.

Okay, but that's one user. I support a lot more than that, and the sentiment is generally "Android is neat, but why all the unnecessary variations, and why the bloatware crap?"

Sure, that's anecdotal too, but I'm definitely not the only one that thinks this way.

 

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That sounds more like a question someone who is more technically inclined would ask, not the typical end user.

Not really.

"what is this?"

"software you can't remove"

"why?"

"because"

"why does his look different than mine? I like his better"

"because"

 

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That's how you'd reply to that type of inquiry?

It wouldn't look as bad if you actually answered the questions in a helpful manner.

Explain what the software is, and what it does if you know, and then explain that it looks the way it does because that's how HTC designed it. The Motorola device looks different because (wait for it) that's how Motorola designed it.

If all the variations are too much, then maybe you should have everyone switch to iPhones or Blackberry's. Limit their choices for the sake of simplicity.

The answer of "because" is over simplified, but that's really the gist of it, is it not? I don't know why they install bloatware that is difficult to remove, perhaps you can enlighten me Scott.

The differences between the phones are workable, but that doesn't make them stupid and completely unnecessary.

 

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That's how you'd reply to that type of inquiry?

It wouldn't look as bad if you actually answered the questions in a helpful manner.

Explain what the software is, and what it does if you know, and then explain that it looks the way it does because that's how HTC designed it. The Motorola device looks different because (wait for it) that's how Motorola designed it.

If all the variations are too much, then maybe you should have everyone switch to iPhones or Blackberry's. Limit their choices for the sake of simplicity.

:agreed:

If you are a customer service rep for a cell phone retailer you should educate customers about the choices they have. The pluses and minuses. Diverse marketplaces = good.

I'm not a customer service rep, I'm a network admin that has to support the damn things when an exec, vp, or "super special" salesman just has to have the new toy of the month.

And sorry guys, but I view the unnecessary differences in UIs and the bloatware as stupid and useless, and I think it makes Android look bad, when it doesn't deserve that viewpoint, because bare Android is pretty decent.

Choice is good, sometimes. But let people add it on after the fact. Isn't that what the Market is for? Isn't that what's so awesome about being open? Give the base features as decreed by Google and let the nerds add whatever crap they want later. But give the average user consistency across devices. Another benefit would be that updates would more than likely come out sooner. Where's 2.2 for Droid X? Galaxy? Still waiting!

 

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http://i.engadget.com/2010/05/22/entelligence-is-android-fragmented-or-is-this-the-new-rate-of-i/

http://m.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/android-fragmentation-is-real/8499

 

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If you remember, the Droid, which runs vanilla Android, took a few months to get Android 2.1. It's got nothing to do with Blur, as the Droid 2 came out the door swinging with Android 2.2.

The fact that it took Motorola awhile to get 2.1 is a separate issue of them taking too damn long. As for Blur, sure it has something to do with it, because 2.2 was released well before the D2 was. The Droid 2 was designed with 2.2 in mind, and didn't have to rely upon an upgrade. Let's see what happens when 3.0 comes out next month or October, and we'll see who gets it fastest. Hint: it won't be Blur, it won't be Sense. It'll be the pure Google devices.

Not sure why the Droid X doesn't have it yet, but it's supposed to be any day now. Also, the fragmentation articles you linked are pretty bunk by now, considering how old they are, also considering 3/4 or higher of phones out there run Android 2.1 or higher now. Android 1.6 and 1.5 are getting closer and closer to extinction every day, and any 2.X OS can run the same software. The only phones running Android 1.X anymore are phones that just can't handle Android 2.X, and how is that any different from the fragmentation caused by upgrading iOS's?

Yeah, any day now. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, with the Droid, both 2.1 and 2.2 releases.

And I disagree, the articles are not bunk, because what applied to the differences between 2.0/2.1 and 1.x will very shortly again apply to 3.x and 2.x. Same song, different month. As for the iOS issue; that's for devices that are 3 years old, not devices that were current less than a year ago. A bit of a difference, no? Also, a huge percentage of apps will still easily run on 3.1.3. The same cannot be said for 1.6 or 1.5 for Android. Another problem for Android.

I'm not arguing with that, I :wub: vanilla Android, it's a very well put together OS, IMO. But I also like the idea that the possibilities are endless with how you can make your phone look and act. I ran the stock launcher for the longest time, until a few weeks ago when I set up Launcher Pro with custom icon's, and it's gorgeous looking.

Sure, make it look how you want. That's great. But download it from the Android Market, don't preinstall it. Make every device a baseline vanilla Android device, and then have an HTC repository with Sense available for free download, a Motorola repository with a free Blur download, etc.

And for God's sake, don't put the horrendous bloatware trial apps on there, and then make you go to command line to remove them. I didn't like bloatware/trialware in Windows, I certainly don't like it on a phone.

 

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End of August was last timeframe given by Motorola, they did pretty well sticking to it on the Droid, what makes you think they won't on the Droid X? 3.0 next month or October? The earliest I've heard is end of this year or beginning of next. There aren't any "pure" Google devices I can think of off the top of my head anymore, since the Droid and Nexus One are both not being sold anymore. The Nexus One will naturally get the update first, since Google made the hardware conform to their own standards, but other manufactures have to build their own drivers and kernels for the OS, and the Nexus One also won't run the latest and greatest forever, I'd guess 3.X will be the last official update it can handle, once 4.X comes out, much like old iPhones, it won't be supported officially, also just like the G1. Honestly, it seems like you are really going out of your way to demonize the system, when at the end of the day, as an end user, it doesn't have a whole lot of effect on you. I get it though, we're tech savvy, we love our updates, but the vast majority of end users don't care, hence why Apple can go so long between doing major overhauls. Fragmentation doesn't effect the vast majority of Android users, it has been nothing but a red herring for Android detractors since it was first dreamed up.

Also, I can't speak anything about trial software, as I've never dealt with any, so I really don't know what you're talking about there.

If you think I'm going out of my way to demonize the system, then you haven't heard or understood anything I've said. I like Android, despite some minor failings, as I've said before. But what the OEM's are doing to it is a shame. It's the carriers/manufacturers that are to blame, not Google Android itself.

And fragmentation is a "red herring"? Are you coming up with that yourself, or are you just regurgitating what you read the Android Team lead say?

And I'm not just an end user, I have to support them, again, as I've already stated. Perhaps you missed that too. It does affect me in that regard.

 

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If fragmentation is real, then who does it actually effect? The end user, or the guys who geek out on theorizing this sort of thing?

Like I said previously, most devices are 2.X devices now, and it still blows my mind Sony is only using 1.6 on the Xperia's.

It effects the end user when one guy has one version with an app that works for that, and another person has an older version on which that app won't run. Or a phone locked down by a carrier that doesn't have a feature standard in Android, because the carrier/OEM is money grabbing.

We've got 4 different OS revisions in less than two years, and no less than 4 different UI's that look very different, and you're still saying Android is not fragmented?

Perhaps we're using different definitions of "fragmented".

Like I said: give people pure Android, and then let them decide what they download. If they buy an Android phone, it should have ALL of the features that Google intended it to, and should not have to pay additional for it.

 

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The only carrier that's locked down Android phones thus far is AT&T...

And Verizon. Want tethering and wifi hotspot on your Droid 2? $20 a month. Free on the Nexus One. Wifi hotspot not available at all on the Droid, unless you root it. How's that not locked down?

UI's don't cause fragmentation. 4 different versions also is not causing the issues you theorize.

I am not theorizing. I support them, as I've already said. Again, apparently your definition of fragmentation is different than mine.

Sure, there are apps that don't work on 1.X that work on 2.X, but the 1.X phones would never even know unless they use a 2.X phone and see the newer app, they can't see them in their marketplace, just like the 2.X phones can't see 1.X only apps on the marketplace. Fragmentation only exists if it actually adversely affects the end user, which is not the case with Android, unless you can dig something up for me that proves me wrong, besides op-ed articles based entirely on speculation? I've already looked for it, and besides op-ed's, there is nothing to read out there. 1.X devices that can't run 2.X aren't fragmented, they're outdated, and that's the facts behind this.

It's amusing that you completely invalidate op-ed pieces on a matter that's subjective such as this.

When the devices are less than two years old, I'll call that fragmented, not outdated. So Android users are assumed to be completely oblivious to what's available to the different versions of Android? Right. Sorry, I don't buy that. Just because it doesn't show up in the Market under a search doesn't mean people aren't going to realize it exists.

The majority of 1.X devices still out there are based on ARM11 processors, which in Apple's world haven't even been used since the 3G, and the 3G can't hardly run OS4 as it is, so how is it different? There will be a point where apps on the App Store will require iOS 4, will you be screaming fragmentation then?

The 3G can run iOS4, and when 4.1 comes out the issues in regards to performance will be addressed.

 

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The point I'm trying to make is I want more Nexus One experiences on more carriers, specifically Verizon. The Nexus One is everything that is right about Android.

 

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How much does it cost to tether on the iPhone? Why should it be different for Android handsets because of the Nexus One?

It costs $20 to tether an iPhone, however there's never been precedent for it to be free on the iPhone, but on the wonderfully open Android, there is precedent; the N1. Why should it be different? Because Android is free, and open, and wonderful, right?

Hard evidence is hard to come by when it comes to fragmentation, if it were a real issue, the evidence would be everywhere.

It is everywhere, you just don't want to acknowledge it, op-ed pieces being invalid and all.

Being able to run it is completely different from being able to run it well. The HTC G1 can run Android 2.2, but it doesn't do it well. iOS 3.X even slowed down the 3G considerably over iOS 2.

iOS 3.1.3 runs really well on my iPT 1st gen, and iOS4 runs great on my wife's 2nd gen iPT. My brother in law has the 3G with iOS4, and it's fine. I didn't notice any difference whatsoever between 2 and 3.

And yet, it didn't sell for crap. Android marketshare is growing because of phones from HTC and Motorola, they are the main sellers of Android phones right now, and the main portion of the 6 million Android phones sold every month.

It didn't sell for crap because Google didn't market it very well at all. I realize HTC and Motorola are the biggest sellers of Android; that doesn't mean I like that they've chosen to bastardize the platform.

 

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I got to try my friend's Droid X last night, that thing is amazingly fast. I thought my Droid was fast at 1ghz, the extra ram in the Droid X really shows. I had zero issue with it having Moto Blur, from what I could tell, all Moto Blur really was was the stock 2.1 launcher with skinned buttons, it didn't do anything differently, and just looked a little different, a little cleaner. There was no bloat on the phone, no slowdowns, and damn is the screen awesome. I have no problem with Moto Blur after using that phone.

On the flip side, my wife returned her Galaxy S, because she hates the browser, hates the lack of copy and paste, and hates the Twitter and Facebook apps available. :lol:

She's going back to a flip phone and an iPod touch.

 

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She couldn't go to the Android Market at get another browser? There are quite a few really good ones to choose from. Lack of copy and paste? Did she try Twidroyd?

Yeah, the copy and paste is horrible on Android; we've already covered this. Yeah, she tried multiple browsers and multiple clients. They're crap compared to what's available on iOS. That's not Android's fault, but it is what it is.

Why are you so hell bent on other people liking Android? If they don't, they don't. It's subjective. I like Android, but I think iOS is better. It's certainly more stable. And I agree with my wife; the app selection is a lot better on iOS, and that has a ton to do with how good the device is overall.

 

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Is it? I haven't even noticed and I use copy/paste all the time

What exactly is the difference between the browser in iOS and android? I haven't really noticed much difference there either. Except I have flash now of course
I also like that the browser on android acts just like I'm sitting on the computer. No redirecting to mobile versions or touch version or whatever...

1. The copy and paste on Android, in my experience with 5 different models is that it isn't as remotely as accurate as iOS4's. And that's when it works at all. If I'm missing something, do enlighten me. Copying text from a website is particularly painful.

2. As I said in the other thread, I don't give two shits about Flash, since I don't even use it on a desktop, much less my phone. Obviously that's personal preference, like it is with anything else in regard to iOS vs. Android.

3. Really? That's funny, I get redirected all the time on my Droid to mobile sites.