Boxy sound with a 1x12 and SM57

4638 Views 37 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Cassidy, Dec 12, 2016

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · Oct 7, 2016

I bought a Mesa Mini Rectifier slant 1x12 a while back and had a go at micing it with an SM57, but all I can get out of it is a very boxy sound, no matter where I place the mic.

I'd assume it is just the nature of a 1x12, but I've seen plenty of clips of people using a similar set up and they don't have the same sound. All of these people always have great recorded guitar, though, and they all seem to use two mics (one is always a 57). For example, Petrucci in any of his recent Mesa vids is using a 1x12, Marco Sfogli in his The Reaction vid is using a Mark V 1x12 combo, and Ola Englund in his V25 demo vids.

So, I don't expect to sound as good as these guys, and I appreciate they're using extra mics, but how come I'm getting such wildly qualitatively different results, no matter where I place the mic? Is it possible it's the room I'm recording in (it's very small), or is that not such an issue for close micing a cab?

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MDV

· #2 · Oct 7, 2016

Cassidy said:
Is it possible it's the room I'm recording in (it's very small), or is that not such an issue for close micing a cab?

Bingo.

Very big deal.

There's a bit of a delusion kicking round that being close to a source eliminates or reduces the room. Nonsense. You absolutely cannot escape the modal response of a room and the effect of near boundary reflections. They affect the sound at the speaker just as much as anywhere else in the room. The mic picks that up.

Move the cab around, see if you can get a more favourable interaction that way. There are lots of guides on speaker placement, as in monitors, and the physics is exactly the same for cab placement.

Also, given that your problem is currently with mids, 10cm thick of 60kg/m3 rockwool savages midrange and low midrange. It's near total absorption.

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 7, 2016

Cheers Mark. I'm in a 2.5x5m room here. Do you reckon that's too small to avoid this boxiness without that stuff, even if I reorient the cab to face longest-ways in the room? If so, I might just give up the ghost. I guess I should just give it a try. I'll also see if I've got long enough cables to stick them in another, larger room, just to hear the difference.

MDV

· #4 · Oct 8, 2016

2

Without a doubt fire down the long axis. Also, try raising it plenty off the ground. Start with about where it would be if it were the top speakers of a 4x12.

Assuming you have a 2.4m, all axes of your room are 'harmonising' with each other (constructively interfering would be the correct term, but I figure that's less obviously comprehensible to most :lol

. The 2.5, 2.4m are short enough that they will get pretty strong mid modes. I've attached a couple of calcs of the room modes.

Definitely try the bigger room, and lots of different places in that room too.

And, no, I don't think hope is lost. You should definitely be able to get a good result in there, it will just take some effort. You may have to be prepared to move lots of shit around. Arrange a room like I do: shit goes where it sounds best and everything else can fit in or fuck off.

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GentleHands McCoy

· #5 · Oct 8, 2016

You could get a Sennheiser 421 as well, those sound great on cabs. The 57 is that honky mid centric stuff that cuts through, the 421 is more hi fi sounding.

It's not popular to say in the online google "how to mic a cab" era, where we all got our idea of the definitive idea of recording from posts on the Sneap forum circa 2007, but there are definitely alternatives to the 57. You could actually download Recab to get a pretty representative idea of how they sound and go from there.

MDV

· #6 · Oct 8, 2016

Greg McCoy said:
You could get a Sennheiser 421 as well, those sound great on cabs. The 57 is that honky mid centric stuff that cuts through, the 421 is more hi fi sounding.

It's not popular to say in the online google "how to mic a cab" era, where we all got our idea of the definitive idea of recording from posts on the Sneap forum circa 2007, but there are definitely alternatives to the 57. You could actually download Recab to get a pretty representative idea of how they sound and go from there.

As an owner of a 421: No.

I love that mic, but it absolutely will not solve this problem. It's not about the flat EQ curve of the mic, it's the room modes ringing. Or so I very strongly suspect. Cant really know for certain without clips.

Besides, spend what a 421 costs on rockwool and carefully place the cab and the mids problem will absolutely go away. Do either of those and he'll get a major improvement.

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 8, 2016

Here's what it sounded like when it was facing the shortest way (the first 50 seconds or so):

https://soundcloud.com/leecassidyguitar/universe-cab-sounds

And here's what it sounded like when facing the lengthiest way (not the best clip, but you get the idea). It was facing an acoustic guitar!

The best sound I've got from the amp is by using two impulses with it, a 57 and a 421!

MDV

· #8 · Oct 8, 2016

Yeah, it's the room.

And 421s are amazing blended with 57s. That and toms is their purpose in life. Not so much on their own.

P.S. I know you did that combo because it's what petrucci uses

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 8, 2016

I just love the sound of that stupidly titled 'proto-playthrough' video (as if 'playthrough' isn't silly enough on its own). It looks like he has a 57 and a 421 on this cab in that video, so I was hoping a 57 would get me most of the way there.

MDV

· #10 · Oct 8, 2016

Cassidy said:
I just love the sound of that stupidly titled 'proto-playthrough' video (as if 'playthrough' isn't silly enough on its own). It looks like he has a 57 and a 421 on this cab in that video, so I was hoping a 57 would get me most of the way there.

I haven't seen that, and my info may well be out of date, but as I recall his 421 is quite far out on the cone and blended pretty low. If so, it's just putting a bit of meat around the 57 and smoothing it a bit. Which it's great for, but you can indeed get most of the way there with a 57.

Just flicked through that vid: yeah, it's in the same place as I read several years ago and by the sound, it's 57-dominated.

petarkablam

· #11 · Oct 8, 2016

MDV said:
Without a doubt fire down the long axis. Also, try raising it plenty off the ground. Start with about where it would be if it were the top speakers of a 4x12.

So much this. Having speakers close to the floor will give you a very strong floor reflection. Some hi-fi speakers actually use this as an advantage and place the woofer on the ground, but the best of them cross over lower than the reflection starts creating comb filtering. IIRC that frequency is aroung 300-400 Hz, generally.

MDV

· #12 · Oct 8, 2016

petarkablam said:
So much this. Having speakers close to the floor will give you a very strong floor reflection. Some hi-fi speakers actually use this as an advantage and place the woofer on the ground, but the best of them cross over lower than the reflection starts creating comb filtering. IIRC that frequency is aroung 300-400 Hz, generally.

Yep. Almost every home environment has a 2.4m ceiling. Thats 1st mode 145Hz, half wavelength ~77, then modes at 215, 290, 360, 400, etc that you're exciting hard with any woofer on the floor.

Drew

· #13 · Oct 11, 2016

MDV said:
Yep. Almost every home environment has a 2.4m ceiling. Thats 1st mode 145Hz, half wavelength ~77, then modes at 215, 290, 360, 400, etc that you're exciting hard with any woofer on the floor.

So, *in general,* as long as there aren't major consistency differences between the different speakers, you're better off starting with trying to mic one of the top two speakers in a 4x12, just to get it a little further off the floor?

I realize that my "in general" is one of those massive simplifying assumptions, akin to macroeconomic models that assume the entire commodity is people buying and selling one good or something, but as a starting point... :lol: As it happens this is what I've been doing, but it was more convenience than anything.

EDIT - another really good recording discussion, BTW. :yesway:

Flexkill

· #14 · Oct 11, 2016

Lee, when I mic my 1x12 i put it in this tiny closet that I have in the room and have the cab sitting on a box like end table that I built to fit in the closet with the cab. The cab sits up off the floor about 3 feet. This is the best way I have found for me to record my 1x12. The closet being so tiny and with the jackets and shit hanging from the rack it's pretty dead in that space. I don't know if that helps with the recording sound but it comes out pretty awesome sounding. I shut the closet door and let her rip

:2c:

Edit: I only use a 57 to record cabs, or variances of it. Could never get the blend to sound right with two mics :shrug:

MDV

· #15 · Oct 11, 2016

Drew said:
So, *in general,* as long as there aren't major consistency differences between the different speakers, you're better off starting with trying to mic one of the top two speakers in a 4x12, just to get it a little further off the floor?

Absolutely. And if you like some trait in the bottom speakers, rotate them to the top and see how they sound there (as in move the cab 90 degrees).

Also, interactions with the walls apply to any cab at any height. Getting the best out of a cab means trying it all over the room to here where it performs best.

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · #16 · Oct 11, 2016

You got a recording of it, dude? I tried reorienting my cab and lifting it off the floor a bit. Recorded a little bit, but it was sounding quite thin, so I put it back on the floor, then recorded a bit more.

I haven't posted it because I wasn't particularly thorough with it, but I can't say I suddenly went 'ahhh!' with either recording. It kinda sounded like it had the same quality. But I was a little ear fatigued by it, maybe by how loud this shit is...it's a loud little set up.

Flexkill

· #17 · Oct 11, 2016

Cassidy said:
You got a recording of it, dude? I tried reorienting my cab and lifting it off the floor a bit. Recorded a little bit, but it was sounding quite thin, so I put it back on the floor, then recorded a bit more.

I haven't posted it because I wasn't particularly thorough with it, but I can't say I suddenly went 'ahhh!' with either recording. It kinda sounded like it had the same quality. But I was a little ear fatigued by it, maybe by how loud this shit is...it's a loud little set up.

I'm not sure you meant me or not, but I will be recording some clips of that BE-OD very soon and will be using the setup I posted

Cassidy

Discussion Starter · #18 · Oct 11, 2016

I always mean you, sweet cheeks.

Assault Bacon

· #19 · Oct 11, 2016 (Edited)

I might actually be able to contribute something to this.

When recording voice for podcast (used to be in radio,) even if I used an isolation guard, I still got bounce off of the ceiling and the walls of my small office.

May I suggest a quilt? Toss a heavy quilt over top of the mic and speaker assembly and see if that doesn't eliminate some of it.

EDIT: To clarify, I did not throw a blanket over my head to record, I built a sound booth out of PVC pipe and quilts.

Flexkill

· #20 · Oct 11, 2016

Cassidy said:
I always mean you, sweet cheeks.

Alright then sizzle chest.

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