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ok guys, i'm sorry to blab on here but i don't really know where to start. it will take me an age to detail exactly what has gone on between me & sebastian at roter since i first started working with them a good while ago. it's an extensive history of fuck-ups & lies that has descended now into me being completely stumped.

i guess it remains to be seen as to whether what i write will be allowed to stay on here as i'm aware that this is a pretty contentious subject.

i've kept quiet about it because i wanted to help roter as much as i could as an 'endorsed' artist for them. i designed this guitar which won the sevenstring.org GOTM, i posted feedback such as this to help promote their brand, i've fielded countless queries on here and other forums as to their quality and i've even had the guitar i designed appear in clothes adverts i was modelling in that have been published internationally such as seen here.

there have been SO many issues, but the one that is currently causing me the most stress is that sebastian & adam at roter custom guitars received payment for my second custom design on march 14th 2008 and i still have no guitar.

they supplied pictures a few months ago of a rough, early-stages attempt at it and it was totally wrong, then this combined with the results of a situation that i had to mediate between my bassist and roter for his custom 7 string bass, i formally requested a full refund on november 12th 2010 and essentially sebastian is now ignoring my emails.

the excuses for not having made the guitar for nearly 3 years have been varied, but mostly saying that they wanted to make it 'special' or that they had no time, whilst they used my money to buy materials & build countless guitars for people that i could see emerge clearly even on this forum. with duff's bass, roter took over a year to make it and the extended delay hugely affected the recording of the album we're about to release.

the last i heard from him was on january 4th; a brief one-liner (after persistent requests from me) saying i'd get the money. i've paid for the guitar in full (like an idiot) and he also has all the hardware (BKP pickups, kahler trem, locking nut, straplocks etc.). similarly, he owes me money for the costs in shipping duff's bass back to him for the most idiotic bit of repairwork you've ever seen (more on this later) and that's a cost he said he'd cover for me.

i feel completely desparate about it as i just can't brush that kind of money aside, plus i have no spare guitar with which to tackle a potentially busy year of gigging with talanas.

i'm getting the feeling i'm being screwed.

H
 

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18,790 Posts
That's a real shame, though not entirely shocking given the rest of the Roter stories we've heard lately. Your guitar is always the one I thought of when I heard bad things about Roter, immediately thinking "Yeah, but they built Hal's guitar, and it looks amazing!" It seems to me that Roter's turning into bad business decisions ruining a lot of potential :(
 

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Mr. Negative Pants, ,
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the excuses for not having made the guitar for nearly 3 years have been varied, but mostly saying that they wanted to make it 'special' or that they had no time, whilst they used my money to buy materials & build countless guitars for people that i could see emerge clearly even on this forum.
:noplease:

This is no way to run a business. Getting numerous other builds done before a customer order that's been on the books and delivering nothing but excuses for 2+ years is just terrible.

You're likely correct about them using your money to finance other people's builds - this unfortunately seems to be par for the course with many small builders - and i wouldn't be surprised if they don't have the cash flow now to get yours done, even though you've supplied the bulk of the hardware.

The best you can hope for now is that you'll get your money and your parts back ASAFP and you can move on from this latest Roter train wreck.
 

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Where?!
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2,632 Posts
Jesus Christ dude.:(

Honestly, you've been inhumanly patient not airing all this earlier.

Is your original Rotor at least in working order?
 

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NSLALP
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13,286 Posts
I'll re-post my earlier-made comments, which do echo Darren's slightly: I'm very sorry to hear about all this fuck-uppery. You (I believe) are/were happy with your first Roter, and you gave them so much in terms of PR by flashing the guitar around and talking it up that you basically amount to their very best customer; you were certainly their most prolific artist.

If you weren't aware before, Sebastian (Apoopis) was banned at ss.org a few months back for being an asshat and fucking over at least a dozen customers on at least two separate occasions. He tipped his hand and showed his true colors several times in the related threads. Obviously you placed the money down for your first and second builds long before the Roter name became a public problem.

At the bare minimum, you are owed a parcel with all of the parts that you fronted money for (but it's possible they are in other people's guitars by now), in addition to, if not a full refund (which of course you deserve), at least a full refund minus some labor charges.

I hope this gets worked out, but considering these characters' attitudes in the past I don't know what to expect for you. I know the legal action angle is also unlikely to materialize. Unlike a lot of us, you actually live on your guitars and are achieving your dreams with them, so you really can't afford this caliber of bullshit. :(
 

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Mod Britannia
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7,233 Posts
Damn dude, sorry to hear that. Being honest, I have to say that sadly I think your money & parts may be long gone and that as Roter are based in Poland you may have a very hard time taking legal action against them.

As mentioned before, my wife is due to give birth soon. That means some VERY nasty nappies will be available in the near future, should you wish to send Roter a present.
 

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Being from Poland myself, I feel ashamed that one of the luthiers around here did what they did... I hope you somehow manage to get your money/stuff back from them. If there is a problem with that, maybe you should contact some Polish companies that deal with uncollectable debt...
 

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I can't help but feel partially responsible since I originally allowed Roter to hawk their shit on ss.org. It's also more unfortunate that the very people who are most likely to get stung by him are still on ss.org, yet Technomancer is threatening to ban anyone other than You, Roter and Roter customers if they post in the thread.

Since Roter is banned, that leaves you and.. Who, exactly, to try and help people avoid the same situation? It's more than a bit ridiculous. That thread should be 300 miles long so that it devours Google in the event that someone NOT on ss.org or here actually looks for a custom and tries to go with them. It might also, in some small way, help prod them towards getting you your money back.

Edit: If that's an Alex stipulation, you mods need to remind him that you guys are the keepers of his cash-machine, and he is an absentee landlord. Do the right thing.

In short, sorry you're getting fucked 12 ways from Sunday, bro.
 

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Guiterrorizer
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That really sucks dude, unfortunately I can't offer any more then that. :(
 

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I am Groot
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Wow, this is just beyond sloppy. If you're a small builder aiming at a niche market (7-strings), the last thing you would want to do is screw over your biggest advocate in that community. Which is exactly what Sebastian has done. :noway:
 

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Where?!
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Wow, this is just beyond sloppy. If you're a small builder aiming at a niche market (7-strings), the last thing you would want to do is screw over your biggest advocate in that community. Which is exactly what Sebastian has done. :noway:
:agreed: x 100000000000000000000000000000000000
 

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NSLALP
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Tell me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression after the ss.org ban that Roter really is dead in the water. They appeared at that point to already be running cash poor and desperately running in circles.
 

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Registered
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1,785 Posts
I can't help but feel partially responsible since I originally allowed Roter to hawk their shit on ss.org. It's also more unfortunate that the very people who are most likely to get stung by him are still on ss.org, yet Technomancer is threatening to ban anyone other than You, Roter and Roter customers if they post in the thread.
That would be to keep people from posting useless random shit in the thread. You know, just like we've done whenever this has happened with other luthiers. So what good exactly would a ton of people with nothing in it posting to the thread do?

You're right though, we should sticky these cautionary threads about luthiers that multiple people have had problems with. Going to do that right now.

Hal good luck getting this resolved, as the situation does suck
 

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That would be to keep people from posting useless random shit in the thread. You know, just like we've done whenever this has happened with other luthiers. So what good exactly would a ton of people with nothing in it posting to the thread do?
Not every post has "nothing in it" man. It's a discussion forum. It's for people to discuss things. Like companies who used ss.org to basically steal from their members, and are left with an admin who is coming pretty close to defending them by his whole "nobody talk about it" stance on the matter.

People need to see, and hear what Roter has done so that Hal has a better chance of getting his money back. The way it stands, that thread is basically Hal talking to himself.

You know, just like we've done whenever this has happened with other luthiers.
That's funny, I seem to remember Sherman's thread being about 20 pages long. The biggest difference being that Mike just posted on the forum as a regular member who built guitars, while Sebastian posted on the forum 99.99% of the time to promote his business and solicit money from the members.

So you left Mike's thread open, which Mike's stance was basically "ss.org is not associated with my business, so I will not talk about it here", and are locking down Roter's thread, whose stance was "Hello SS.ORG Send me money for guitars!".

You = Alex, or whoever, not you, specifically TM.
 
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