[JonSick]

Has anyone had a chance with either of these new axes yet? I'm considering one, but can't find anyone with stock to check em out.

I just got done recording all my guide tracks with my RG7321. Great axe, but looking for something proper to record the real tracks with.

 

[Harry]

Edge Zero is a terrible trem IMO. The original RG 1527 is not the best for rhythm guitar tone to be honest (I'm saying this as an owner) unless it's loaded with active pickups, because basswood just doesn't bring the chunk.

Get the Jackson. It already comes loaded with good pickups.
The Ibanez doesn't.
People can bash on EMGs all they like, but there's a reason why they are such a popular studio option and it's because they just track so well because of their tightness and controlled bottom end.
The Jackson also has a good trem, while the Ibanez has the pathetic excuse of a so called "improvement" over the Edge Pro.

 

[JonSick]

I have to say the edge zero on my RG2570 is very nice. But I still prefer my weighty original floyds.

Why do you not like the EZ?

 

[Harry]

The sustain block is fucking tiny dude. You lose sustain because of it. All the Edge Pro guitars just sustain so much better and sound fuller.
And because of the fucking terrible design, unlike the Edge Pro where you can replace the sustain block, you're stuck with the shitty small one on the Edge Zero:noway:

 

[JonSick]

Hmmm, I can't say I've noticed on my Ibanez; but then I've only played through a Pod with it so far and I'm loving the neck.

I did have an RG1527 but sold it before I got to try other pickups. Did you replace your pickups and if so is it better? I don't mind picking up another and sticking in some new pickups if the tremolo is that much better.

Essentially a £1,000 budget to do everything in and the best option I possibly can.

If it matters, I'm doing music similar to Fear Factory's Demanufacture and will be picking up a Peavey 6505+ pretty soon.

 

[Harry]

Definitely grab a used RG 1527 with the Edge Pro.
But honestly I prefer non trem guitars for recording. Fixed bridge guitars just sound superior to me for rhythm playing for metal.
You may as well get a used RG 7421 or 7621, have more money left over than you would have if you bought the 1527, and drop new pickups in it.
Blackouts or EMG 707s are a great choice for a basswood recording guitar.

FWIW my RG 1527 has Dimarzio Blaze bridge and neck pickups.
They are great pickups, but for recording I think the Blackouts in my RG 7421 slay the Dimarzios. The extra quietness of actives is awesome too

 

[Josh]

I like the sound and feel of the EZ on the guitars I've tried :shrug:

 

[Leona]

I like the sound and feel of the EZ on the guitars I've tried :shrug:

Agreed. Edge Zero is a great trem. if you dont care about the sustain block, the Zero Point series are the best ibby trems, IMO.

That said, i hate basswood. Get the SLAT

 

[stuh84]

People can bash on EMGs all they like, but there's a reason why they are such a popular studio option and it's because they just track so well because of their tightness and controlled bottom end.

Doesn't harm that half of the "metal" guitars out there are loaded with them to begin with...

I don't agree with the fact that basswood and passive is no good for recording, given for my recordings and the tone I go for, actives are absolutely useless. It's personal preference.

 

[Harry]

Doesn't harm that half of the "metal" guitars out there are loaded with them to begin with...

I don't agree with the fact that basswood and passive is no good for recording, given for my recordings and the tone I go for, actives are absolutely useless. It's personal preference.

As for trems, you'll find a lot of tracking engineers and mix engineers will prefer you come into the studio with a fixed bridge guitar.
In a perfect world it doesn't matter too much, but in a world where not everyone has consistent technique and can potentially push the guitar out of tune with bad muting technique, you can understand why often engineers will have on their list of things to do " DO NOT use guitars with tremolos for rhythm guitar tracks".

I'm not saying basswood and passives are useless and "no good" at all.
But based on the tightest, most crushing productions I've heard, generally none of them are based around basswood guitars and only a few based on passive pickups.

My personal pick for the 5 most technically perfect productions out there

1. Soilwork - Stabbing the Drama : EMG loaded guitars
2. Gojira - The Way of All Flesh - Seymour Duncan JB loaded Jacksons (alder body most likely)
2. Sylosis - Conclusion of an Age : again, EMG in ESP guitars
3. Nevermore - This Godless Endeavor - EMGs in Mahogany IIRC
4. Paramore - Brand New Eyes : Yes it's not metal obviously, and it's lower gain stuff, but obviously it's not the kinda music that really calls for actives anyway. In a lower gain situation like that, passives seem to work better.
Definitely helps Chris Lord-Alge was at the mixing desk for that album
5. All Shall Perish - Awaken the Dreamers : again, EMG

I think we can see from this, that something about the way active pickups sound just help them slot into the mix.
Their tight bottom end and lower mids helps to keep things more concentrated in the mid range frequency bands.
Not so much of a concern when you're playing lower gain stuff, but for modern metal with lots of saturation from the pre-amp, that stuff is important.
Really I've just never heard a mix using passive pickups in a basswood guitar that brings the kind of chunk and basically perfect lower mids that I hear on those albums.
As we know, Petrucci uses basswood + Dimarzio passives, but none of his guitar tones really match the tightness of anything listed above IMO.
The JB does indeed work with Alder in the case of TWOAF, but of course the JB can quickly get messy with the wrong woods. Very picky about what body woods it goes into, whereas actives seem at home in a variety of woods from basswood, alder, Mahogany and even Ash

 

[stuh84]

This is where we will disagree, because I think Nevermore's tone on TGE was horrible, overly muddy, and yet harsh. Everyones tone you've mentioned with EMGs are ones which I find to be artificial, they work for it, but they are really not what I see as good guitar tone.

Hence, as I said, personal opinion, not fact.

 

[Harry]

This is where we will disagree, because I think Nevermore's tone on TGE was horrible, overly muddy, and yet harsh. Everyones tone you've mentioned with EMGs are ones which I find to be artificial, they work for it, but they are really not what I see as good guitar tone.

Hence, as I said, personal opinion, not fact.

I think you're missing the point man.
You don't put on a record to listen to the guitar tone.

Take it into perspective man. It's not about the guitars, the bass, or the drums.
It's about how every element comes together.
There is no such thing as a good guitar tone in a mix, a good bass tone or a good drum sound.
If you ever have the chance to solo a track on a mix, it sounds like shit.
A good sounding guitar tone on it's own will not fit in a mix, period.
You have to make some compromise.
Yes, once you high pass that bottom end out from the guitar, multi band compress the lower mids and scoop out some of the core mids to make way for the bass guitar the guitar wont sound good at all on it's own.
But when it comes together in the mix, BAM, it kicks major fucking ass.
Listen to bass guitar track solo'd. Truth is, there isn't a lot of actual bass in the bass guitar. There is only just enough to fill out a bit of the bottom end and not much more because there needs to be space for the kick drum as well.
Alone, a kick drum on it's own sounds really weak and shitty. But in a mix it provides a certain snap and attack with it's upper end attack and provides the low end with good cohesion and fills out of the space in the sub bass and mid bass that the guitars , or the vocals or the snare just can't fill up.
Sit down with any album you think has "good guitar tone" but then listen to how it sounds in the mix.
Chances are you'll realize the guitars actually don't sound any good at all when all you listen to the guitars, because the guitar tracks were designed in mind to sound good only taken in proper perspective with the full mix.

It's unfortunate that guitarists spend so much time trying to get the holy grail of guitar tone, so focused on their guitar tone, when instead it's time just better spent understanding what specific frequencies do and how they relate to other elements of a mix.

 

[stuh84]

Dude, seriously, don't try and tell me how things work together in a mix, I've been mixing my own and other peoples bands for about 8 years now, quite often being paid for the privilege.

I'm simply saying, that your idea of what consitutes a good guitar tone in a mix isn't the same as everyone elses, and from the list of albums you put, me and you disagree intently on what we view as a good guitar tone in a mix. Stop telling people their opinions are wrong, and putting your views across as fact.

 

[Leona]

I think you're missing the point man.
You don't put on a record to listen to the guitar tone.

Take it into perspective man. It's not about the guitars, the bass, or the drums.
It's about how every element comes together.
There is no such thing as a good guitar tone in a mix, a good bass tone or a good drum sound.
If you ever have the chance to solo a track on a mix, it sounds like shit.
A good sounding guitar tone on it's own will not fit in a mix, period.
You have to make some compromise.
Yes, once you high pass that bottom end out from the guitar, multi band compress the lower mids and scoop out some of the core mids to make way for the bass guitar the guitar wont sound good at all on it's own.
But when it comes together in the mix, BAM, it kicks major fucking ass.
Listen to bass guitar track solo'd. Truth is, there isn't a lot of actual bass in the bass guitar. There is only just enough to fill out a bit of the bottom end and not much more because there needs to be space for the kick drum as well.
Alone, a kick drum on it's own sounds really weak and shitty. But in a mix it provides a certain snap and attack with it's upper end attack and provides the low end with good cohesion and fills out of the space in the sub bass and mid bass that the guitars , or the vocals or the snare just can't fill up.
Sit down with any album you think has "good guitar tone" but then listen to how it sounds in the mix.
Chances are you'll realize the guitars actually don't sound any good at all when all you listen to the guitars, because the guitar tracks were designed in mind to sound good only taken in proper perspective with the full mix.

It's unfortunate that guitarists spend so much time trying to get the holy grail of guitar tone, so focused on their guitar tone, when instead it's time just better spent understanding what specific frequencies do and how they relate to other elements of a mix.

You're kinda trying to tell us what we already know about how mixes work. The fact of the matter is, that at the end of the day, the guitars do sound a certain way in the mix. Your pickups and amps are going to affect that significantly, no matter how many filters you apply.

 

[Harry]

Dude, seriously, don't try and tell me how things work together in a mix, I've been mixing my own and other peoples bands for about 8 years now, quite often being paid for the privilege.

I'm simply saying, that your idea of what consitutes a good guitar tone in a mix isn't the same as everyone elses, and from the list of albums you put, me and you disagree intently on what we view as a good guitar tone in a mix. Stop telling people their opinions are wrong, and putting your views across as fact.

Hey, I think my post is pretty much agreeing with you that the guitar tones on TGE are not actually good though
I just think at some point, you can look at a mix in an objective fashion and say "Goddamn, that's a tight mix".
I mean, I honestly think that musically, Stabbing the Drama is actually pretty crappy, but when I look past that subjective factor of the music it's the tightest mix I've heard to date.
I would say though that perhaps TGE is a little bit too heavy on the 7KHz fizz for my personal tastes and I guess you probably agree with that too.

 

[Harry]

Your pickups and amps are going to affect that significantly, no matter how many filters you apply.

I don't dispute that point either. I agree 100 per cent:yesway:

 

[Harry]

Anyway, fuck it's 3:48am.
So apologies if I've ranted too much and came across as too forward in my opinions, because right now I probably should be asleep.

 

[stuh84]

A good guitar tone in a mix has to be clear, and thats not what I hear in TGE, quite often the notes just run into each other to my ears, and its the same kind of tone I hear whenever I play anything with EMGs (eg my 8 string which I don't like the sound of live OR recorded due to the pickup).

My 8 string has an EMG, and no basswood anywhere near it, and yet it sounds horrible to me. I've recorded friends guitars with EMG and no basswood, and they also sound horrible. The best tone I've personally recorded was basswood with a Bareknuckle.

So, while many people do choose EMGs for their characteristics, and some people really like how they sound in a mix, I am not one of those people, so seeing it made out to be pretty much fact irks me.

I'm not trying to be awkward or stubborn, I just don't like seeing what I see as opinion passed off as fact. I've got no personal qualms with you dude

 

[Harry]

A good guitar tone in a mix has to be clear, and thats not what I hear in TGE, quite often the notes just run into each other to my ears, and its the same kind of tone I hear whenever I play anything with EMGs (eg my 8 string which I don't like the sound of live OR recorded due to the pickup).

My 8 string has an EMG, and no basswood anywhere near it, and yet it sounds horrible to me. I've recorded friends guitars with EMG and no basswood, and they also sound horrible. The best tone I've personally recorded was basswood with a Bareknuckle.

So, while many people do choose EMGs for their characteristics, and some people really like how they sound in a mix, I am not one of those people, so seeing it made out to be pretty much fact irks me.

I'm not trying to be awkward or stubborn, I just don't like seeing what I see as opinion passed off as fact. I've got no personal qualms with you dude

Well hence why TGE doesn't make it as my number one favorite mix.
The guitar tones are indeed quite gainy and heavy in the lower mids.
I'm generally a fan of Andy Sneap's work, so I do actually quite dig that sound, but I can agree that the lower mids could have been tighter and that the bass guitar could have perhaps filled out that space a little more.
The EMG 707s are not quite as tight as the 81-7s. You lose a little note clarity and you get a bit of note smear across bigger chords but I guess for a guy like Loomis who is a big soloist, it's a good compromise because it means the leads don't sound as thin as they would if he had used 81-7s instead

 

[Emperoff]

I'm sorry but "This Godless Endeavor" isn't exactly what I would call a technically perfect production (and I love that album).

Wait... Another basswod rant thread? :lol: