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Check out the band exivious and one more band called canvas solaris.
 

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Prague Owlmighty
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
some covers von dieses deutsche band (you know....cuz they're german....also I haven't used german in years, so that grammar is probably super far off).



 

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Dont you love balls?
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I saw this video a while ago. It seems more avent garde-ish then jazz-metal fusion. It honestly is just really annoying to me :lol:

I do dig Exivious though. Cynic too :yesway:
 

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Kinda cool, but not what I would imagine by the term "jazz-metal." Definitely interesting, though.

I generally think of Atheist, Cynic, and Exivious when I hear jazz-metal. That video in the OP reminds me of a much heavier Mr. Bungle with no vocals and more of a metal influence.
 

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crying in your beer
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Check out the Panzerballett thread from a while ago. 8) Sebastian Lanser is a HELL of a drummer, that dude is unreal.

Oh, and I'm going to see them live next week, will be killer for sure. :)
 

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Prague Owlmighty
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I saw this video a while ago. It seems more avent garde-ish then jazz-metal fusion. It honestly is just really annoying to me :lol:
Avant garde is more about experimentation with different sound, such as metals bands like Arcturus, Celtic Frost, and Ulver (and non metal artists like Stockhausen, John Cage, and Pierre Schaeffer). Those avant garde bands aren't technically crazy at all....but they have a shit ton of weird sounds. Jazz metal is more about experimentation with actual music, such as progressions, meter changes, etc. This, of course, does include bands like Cynic and Exivious, but also Panzerballett. I mean, think about it: if you either take away the sax or replace it with a guitar, you get lines like those in Cynic. What makes Panzerballett different is the sax.

Listen to the first 17 seconds of the OP. The first genre you're going to think of is Jazz (maybe fusion, sure, but jazz nonetheless). Then the guitars come in, and that's...well...metal. I realize that this is pretty much the bare bones of categorizing this band, but let's be real about this: sub-genres tend to get out of hand too easily (although I am not touching that here beyond that statement). They aren't experimenting with different sounds at all. In fact, they are using their instruments the way that people typically use them sonically, though they are experimenting with the music.

Here's some quotes from their site (keep in mind, these guys are very german):

"An innovative, hard 'n' heady mixture of jazz, funk and metal, crossing complex polyrhythms with metal guitar riffing, funky grooves and jazz improvisation: Bang your head with brains."

"Die Rammstein des Jazz." (The Rammstein of Jazz)

"Despite its overall intensity and throbbing rock rhythms, Starke Stücke is an album that could only have been made by a group knowledgeable of the jazz tradition. While certainly not for the faint-at-heart, Jan Zehrfeld's Panzerballett is a group that, like Lost Tribe before it, brings new meaning to the term fusion."
-All About Jazz

"The music on offer is an unusual and often complex combination of metal and jazz. The record is instrumental and takes a few spins to get into, but once over the initial unfamiliarity it's easy to marvel over the bands excellent and innovative musicianship."
-www.rockprog.com

btw, nowhere on their own website does it mention Avant-garde.

Also, this is straight from progarchives.com
"Jan says that at first his vision was a mix between Planet X and Tribal Tech, but he replaced the keyboardist with saxophones, as he did find any keyboards player. When asked for direct musical influces he mentions Meshuggah, Mats/Morgan, Dillinger Escape Plan, Screaming Headless Torsos, and Allan Holdsworth.
Their music as Jan says, while being fusion based has various facets to it, some of it derived from funk and metal. This diverse sound is in part due to the fact that each band member comes from a somewhat different background and has an affinity for different musical types. Another reason that Jan mentions is the experimentation with guitar sounds to cover up the fact that there are no keyboards and yet he wants spacey elements in his music.
His vision of their future path includes further evolving in this current direction of fusing styles, and bringing in more metal and jazz elements. To quote his words: "combing latin-jazz with grindcore, hard-bop with death metal, or disco-funk with hardcore" "

Also, wtf was up with the megadeth? That album rocks...but...what?
 

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Dont you love balls?
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I guess what we think of as avant garde are a bit different. I think of combining genre's (in this case it would be as you said. Instead of a guitar it's a sax. Then with the drums and guitars it's quite metal). I think what makes it avant garde to me is that it doesn't mesh into something new, but is just a bunch of jumbled up genres (can you tell I'm not a fan of much avent garde :lol:).

To sort of explain this more I'll use an example using cooking. I'll use this band, and Cynic. This band took jazz and metal and and sort of put them in a pot and stirred it up. Whereas Cynic took the two and blended them into something cohesive. With this it's more of a here's some jazz... now metal...
NOW JAZZ AGAIN.

I think my biggest qualm though, is that it's just annoying to me. The sax line is called jazzy but to me it has no interesting melodic, harmonic or rhythmic movement. It's just a bunch of non diatonic notes played obnoxiously with dense drop 2 chords played behind it and labeled jazz.

/rant

His vision of their future path includes further evolving in this current direction of fusing styles, and bringing in more metal and jazz elements. To quote his words: "combing latin-jazz with grindcore, hard-bop with death metal, or disco-funk with hardcore" "
If that's not avant garde then I don't know what is :lol:
 

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Prague Owlmighty
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If that's not avant garde then I don't know what is :lol:
dude, I studied that shit in school. Here's a piece that I performed for a class.



Yea, not metal, but I'm experimenting with different sounds to make music. I'm not combining genres, just playing with sounds. I suppose that's fine if you have that definition of avant garde, but then just about every group is avant garde. Every group (whether its metal or not) takes influences from other groups/genres. Why do you think people come up with so many sub-genre names? Let's throw some examples out there:

Rhapsody of Fire. Yes, a metal band, but they have A LOT of symphonic elements in their music. So much, that they are classified as Symphonic Metal (I've seen Film-Score Metal before too). But by your definition of avant garde, this would also be an avant garde band, which I'm pretty sure no one on the face of the earth has ever considered.

Korpiklaani. Really...them? They're just a bunch of drunk Finns who put folky influences into metal. Yea, probably not the first, but they're blend of metal and folk is actually quite fun to party to. It's not so much avant garde though, even though they have an accordion and violin.

More bands combining genres: Tyr, Orphaned Land, Cynic, Led Zeppelin, Linkin Park (didn't say all of these bands where going to be good), Rascal Flatts, Powerglove, Alestorm, Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater.

That's fine if that's your definition of avant garde, but at least look it up (seriously, with google, research takes seconds). And if you're still ok with your definition of it, then I hope it becomes your favorite genre soon, because it's probably just about everything you listen to :yesway:
 

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Dont you love balls?
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dude, I studied that shit in school. Here's a piece that I performed for a class.

And this is just another example of our differing opinion (which I have no problem with :yesway:) When I hear stuff like this I label it "sonic experimentation. I don't really consider is music.

Yea, not metal, but I'm experimenting with different sounds to make music. I'm not combining genres, just playing with sounds. I suppose that's fine if you have that definition of avant garde, but then just about every group is avant garde. Every group (whether its metal or not) takes influences from other groups/genres. Why do you think people come up with so many sub-genre names?
That's just your misconception of how I view things, just like I probably have (and have probably already expressed) misconceptions of your genre-labeling opinions.

That's fine if that's your definition of avant garde, but at least look it up (seriously, with google, research takes seconds). And if you're still ok with your definition of it, then I hope it becomes your favorite genre soon, because it's probably just about everything you listen to :yesway:[/QUOTE]

It's a case by case opinion. I wouldn't say Zeppelin is avant garde (referring back to one of your example's) because they created what is, to me, an individual style of music. It's not like they took rock 'n roll from the 60's, added bop and some orchestration and called it there music. They were on the forefront of a new, heavier style that had it's own definition. Not the combination of other genre's but the culmination of them.

I think it's important though, while we debate, to realize that this is just my own way of keeping track of things in my own head (which is a little screwed up). And should really to taken quite lightly. If you say potato one way and I the other; it's still a potato!

:)
 

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Prague Owlmighty
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
And this is just another example of our differing opinion (which I have no problem with :yesway:) When I hear stuff like this I label it "sonic experimentation. I don't really consider is music.
For the record, I hate this form of music (I know it makes me sound hypocritical, but wait for it...), but it doesn't change the fact that I studied this in school, and that it is largely considered to be avant-garde. That's just how it is.

Also, with all of those bands I listed, I don't now and will never consider them avant garde in any way. I was just trying to point out the flaw in your logic (which, sure, may have been a misconception on my part). As for what is largely considered to be avant garde, I give you a definition from wikipedia:

"Avant-garde metal, also known as experimental metal, is a subgenre of heavy metal music characterised by the use of innovative, avant-garde elements, large-scale experimentation, and the use of non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures"

And this is from about.com:

"Also called experimental metal, it's characterized by unusual and nontraditional instruments and song structures."

Just pointing out that it doesn't say anything about mixing genres. Avant-garde is all about experimentation. Panzerballett doesn't fit this, even with the sax, because Jan Zehrfeld, the guitarist and frontman of the group, says that he picked up the sax player because he couldn't find a keyboardist. So in that aspect, he wasn't experimenting. Since he was going for a jazzy sound, the sax only made sense to him.
 

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Dont you love balls?
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But when you include a nonstandard instrument it implies a genre and depending on how it is utilized can definitely be considered combining genres.

Besides that I think I'm completely on the same page as you. Like the wiki definition said, it's just about including "innovative, avant-garde elements, large-scale experimentation, and the use of non-standard sounds, instruments, and song structures". So it's more on an inclusion of elements rather than a melding of them.

You did the smart thing and looked up definitions. I would have forever been trying to articulate what I mean through the impersonal messages in this thread haha.

Also, they used "avent-garde" in the definition :lol:
 
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