Metal Guitarist Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Reverend Secret Flower
Joined
·
11,836 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, I'v been a nintendo guy for a long time. I'm used to free online game play. I mean, i buy the system, i buy the game, i should beable to play the service online. I know PS3 also offers their online for free. Obviously they can do this and not go under.

So i just recently got a 360. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth they are charging 8 bucks a month to play online when no one else does. But fair enough. I can understand people need to make money. I can pony up the dough. Do i think its right when no one else charges? no. But its not a ton of money, so i'l play along.


But now i'm running into buying used games that have an online pass that is used up, and now, after legitamitly buying the game legally, i have to pay to use the online service AND they want me to buy an online pass because its used?

What double dipping scumbags started this practice??

Mass effect does it(it should be called mass bore because those games are so so boreing). Now i see battlefield 3 does it. And thats just the 2 i ran into so far.

What the hell is up with this? Now i have to check to see what games are going to fuck me in the ass if i buy used. As a matter of principal, i wont buy games from these dev's for double dipping.

One of the responses i saw from the BF3 rep was "they needed to make more server space and it wasnt free". Well, if the person that sold the game used isnt going to use it anymore, then the extra server spot excuse is bullshit. Just over write the slot with new info.

After not being into games much for along time, i'm very jaded by all the money grabs the gaming industry is doing to is customers. And dont get me started on DLC stuff.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
The developers don't see a penny from used game sales, so they're trying to make some money somehow. This is the flaw in physical media: used sales. The disc isn't what you're paying for, and yet that's the physical representation of the game.

I can understand the argument that a successful game will make millions in new sales before a single used copy is sold, and so they don't really need another dollar. However, don't they deserve to earn every penny of revenue that their hard work has created?

I can honestly say I'd rather someone download my music for free than buy a used copy.
 

·
Reverend Secret Flower
Joined
·
11,836 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The developers don't see a penny from used game sales, so they're trying to make some money somehow. This is the flaw in physical media: used sales. The disc isn't what you're paying for, and yet that's the physical representation of the game.

I can understand the argument that a successful game will make millions in new sales before a single used copy is sold, and so they don't really need another dollar. However, don't they deserve to earn every penny of revenue that their hard work has created?

I can honestly say I'd rather someone download my music for free than buy a used copy.
I get the premise. But its dirty. If i buy the game, i should get the game and the features it offers. They dont tell you this up front. You find out after you get it home.

Companies wouldnt continue to make games if they didnt make money. They got their money when someone bought it new. I understand wanting a piece of the used market, but A. if you cant make money selling your product, dont fucking make and sell it. and B. dont bite the hand that feeds i.e. the gamer.

This is just part of the deal. People are going to buy the game and trade it in. You want to stop that? Stop making physical media and distribute it online.

Its just absurde that if i wanted to lend my buddy a copy of a game i bought, he couldnt play it online without paying even though it wasnt a "used" game and i paid my fair share to the dev's.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
I get the premise. But its dirty. If i buy the game, i should get the game and the features it offers. They dont tell you this up front. You find out after you get it home.
It's kind of in the fine print on the back of the box, though worded vaguely. I can agree it's a bit shady, but not a big deal if you're buying new.

Companies wouldnt continue to make games if they didnt make money. They got their money when someone bought it new. I understand wanting a piece of the used market, but A. if you cant make money selling your product, dont fucking make and sell it. and B. dont bite the hand that feeds i.e. the gamer.
People who buy used games don't feed them, therefore they're biting the hand that doesn't feed them.

This is just part of the deal. People are going to buy the game and trade it in. You want to stop that? Stop making physical media and distribute it online.
A vast majority still want physical media, therefore this would be suicidal for their business.

Its just absurde that if i wanted to lend my buddy a copy of a game i bought, he couldnt play it online without paying even though it wasnt a "used" game and i paid my fair share to the dev's.
That's still someone who would have paid for the game, but now won't, because they don't have to.
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
The developers don't see a penny from used game sales, so they're trying to make some money somehow. This is the flaw in physical media: used sales. The disc isn't what you're paying for, and yet that's the physical representation of the game.

I can understand the argument that a successful game will make millions in new sales before a single used copy is sold, and so they don't really need another dollar. However, don't they deserve to earn every penny of revenue that their hard work has created?

I can honestly say I'd rather someone download my music for free than buy a used copy.
No. Does ford deserve an extra 5000 every time a used ford is sold? No.

No.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
No. Does ford deserve an extra 5000 every time a used ford is sold? No.

No.
That's a physical item, you either have to sell it used, or scrap it, which is wasteful.

A video game, a movie, or a song, is not a physical item. It's stored on physical media, but the disc isn't what you're buying.

Again, if someone else was profiting from my music, I'd be pissed off, and that's what used CD/DVD/game sales is.
 

·
I have angered the Noodles
Joined
·
2,662 Posts
Wirelessly posted

By the same token there is a lot of engineering and intangible things you are buying with those cars. What about the people who design the software for the touch radios? Or program the computer modules.

Would that be any different than games as an intellectual property?
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
That's a physical item, you either have to sell it used, or scrap it, which is wasteful.

A video game, a movie, or a song, is not a physical item. It's stored on physical media, but the disc isn't what you're buying.

Again, if someone else was profiting from my music, I'd be pissed off, and that's what used CD/DVD/game sales is.
And when they sell it, they dont have it anymore. Piracy not included, there is still ONE instance of it out there. physical or not, the person who had it does not have it, unless you wanna start charging for memories. I mean yeah, i can remember most of the SNES games i played.

If someone had my music, and sold it, and stopped having it, miraculously, theres still one copy of my cd around. its not like the "amount" of my music has suddenly doubled.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
Wirelessly posted

By the same token there is a lot of engineering and intangible things you are buying with those cars. What about the people who design the software for the touch radios? Or program the computer modules.

Would that be any different than games as an intellectual property?
I guess I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, because I can see both sides. Intellectual property is in such a grey area these days that it's impossible to say how it "should" be handled.

In the case of the design and software that gets built into actual hardware products (cars, stereos, etc.), they sell those designs and software to the company manufacturing the product, that company now owns it and can do whatever they want with it, and the original designer doesn't see another penny from their work. When you buy a car or a stereo, you are paying for the manufacturing and distribution costs of something that they can choose to only make a finite number of.

With music, games, and movies, they are licensing the media for distribution, and are continuing to receive revenue from its sales, and maintain ownership of their intellectual property. When you buy a song, game, or movie, you're purchasing a copy of something that can be copied an infinite number of times with literally no restrictions other than storage space on the planet, and part of your money is going directly to the creators to support them.

Personally, for me the noblest way to handle it is once it's paid for its own development, and then made a big chunk of profit on top of that, just give it away for free so that no one wants to buy it used. It's incredibly respectful to the people who supported your creation, even though you could still make more money from it, little by little.

I have some friends who work in used record/game stores and absolutely love it, and speak out strongly against illegal downloading, but don't realize that they're actually kind of worse.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
And when they sell it, they dont have it anymore. Piracy not included, there is still ONE instance of it out there. physical or not, the person who had it does not have it, unless you wanna start charging for memories. I mean yeah, i can remember most of the SNES games i played.

If someone had my music, and sold it, and stopped having it, miraculously, theres still one copy of my cd around. its not like the "amount" of my music has suddenly doubled.
I can understand this argument, absolutely, I'm just giving the other side of the coin to open up a fair debate.

And you can't ignore piracy in this argument, because a large, and constantly growing, percentage of the population will purchase, borrow, or rent a physical disc, rip it for their own use, and then sell it or return it to get some or all of their money back.
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
I can honestly say I'd rather someone download my music for free than buy a used copy.
Wat.

Say some dude spends, say, $10 on your album, and sells it for say $5. Clearly the profiteering cunt needs to be lynched. He amassed a fortune worth negative 5 bucks, using your hard work! Watadickkillhisfamily.
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
That came off as way more condescending than I meant it to. But I still think youre on crack :lol:
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
Wat.

Say some dude spends, say, $10 on your album, and sells it for say $5. Clearly the profiteering cunt needs to be lynched. He amassed a fortune worth negative 5 bucks, using your hard work! Watadickkillhisfamily.
I'm more so talking about how that guy sells it to a store for $2, that store sells it for $10, and makes $8 of pure profit that doesn't ever get back to anyone.

Selling it privately at a garage sale or online? Not really a big deal, IMHO, but still slightly douchey.

Like I said, grey area.

Personally, when I buy something digital, whether it comes on a disc or is downloaded, I consider that money gone, to support the content creators and distributors, and never expect or want to get a penny of it back.
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
I guess my stance is:

1) I personally feel uncomfortable buying used media, since I know that I'm not actually supporting the creators, and therefore I'm not showing them with my money that I like it and want more.

2) The only people who should decide what is or isn't ok to do with non-physical products as far as reselling is the creators whose livelihood relies on sales. It's up to us as consumers to decide whether we want to actually spend our money on those products and support or not support those business practices.

3) The real issue is clarity. They should be upfront about things like this. If they choose to use online passes like this, that's their choice, just like it's our choice whether or not we want to give them our money. We don't need these games, so we can choose to not play them. But we should be given all the information we need to make that decision before we spend the money.
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
Yep. The store definitely doesnt have any employees or anything like that really.

TIL: Yardsales make you a dick :lol:

I can AAAAAAAAAALMOST see your argument for the stores, but really? A yardsale? Trading money for something you own (be it a disc or content or whatever) makes you somewhat douchey? Are you for fucking real? That's grey area in the same way that a kindergartner's picture of a polar bear eating marshmallows in a cloud is grvm and kvlt and tr00 in the blackest of ways :lol:

BRB need to go punch everyone at the grocery store.
 

·
Slow Money
Joined
·
14,612 Posts
3) The real issue is clarity. They should be upfront about things like this. If they choose to use online passes like this, that's their choice, just like it's our choice whether or not we want to give them our money. We don't need these games, so we can choose to not play them. But we should be given all the information we need to make that decision before we spend the money.
:agreed: Very much this :yesway:
 

·
...
Joined
·
18,790 Posts
Yep. The store definitely doesnt have any employees or anything like that really.

TIL: Yardsales make you a dick :lol:

I can AAAAAAAAAALMOST see your argument for the stores, but really? A yardsale? Trading money for something you own (be it a disc or content or whatever) makes you somewhat douchey? Are you for fucking real? That's grey area in the same way that a kindergartner's picture of a polar bear eating marshmallows in a cloud is grvm and kvlt and tr00 in the blackest of ways :lol:

BRB need to go punch everyone at the grocery store.
I'll be honest, I'm not even entirely convinced of my own argument :lol: I'm drowning in grey area, since I want people to support content creators, and there's a growing attitude amongst the population of "I want that movie/game/song, but I don't pay money for things like that and I don't support people who make those things, they should go get a real job" that I absolutely fucking despise.

I work in retail, and have for years, so I understand stores needing to make money to stay in business, and how people trying to find the best deal is putting better stores out of business simply because of douchey corporate stores undercutting them, mistreating and underpaying their employees to keep costs down and profits up, even with lower prices.

And as someone who buys things, I understand that you have to think about your own money and not overpay for things if you don't have to, and so you want a good deal.

I'm constantly in battle with myself between affording the things I want, and feeling good about the businesses and people that I'm supporting :lol:
 

·
Reverend Secret Flower
Joined
·
11,836 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I guess my stance is:

1) I personally feel uncomfortable buying used media, since I know that I'm not actually supporting the creators, and therefore I'm not showing them with my money that I like it and want more.

2) The only people who should decide what is or isn't ok to do with non-physical products as far as reselling is the creators whose livelihood relies on sales. It's up to us as consumers to decide whether we want to actually spend our money on those products and support or not support those business practices.

3) The real issue is clarity. They should be upfront about things like this. If they choose to use online passes like this, that's their choice, just like it's our choice whether or not we want to give them our money. We don't need these games, so we can choose to not play them. But we should be given all the information we need to make that decision before we spend the money.
In physical products, no one gives a shit about supporting the manufacturers. They buy the product that is offered. But suddenly i'm supposed to get all warm and fuzzy about intelectual property? Because the dev's care so much about us and just want to furnish us with great products??

Pfft. They do it for MONEY. And when your in the game of selling things, people are going to use them, and resell them. That is just how it works. And just because i'm a musician and my intelectual property rights are in jepordy doesnt mean i'm going to get a big willy nilly softy because game devs are in the same boat.

They get in the game of physical media. Then they need to play the game. Not fuck the customers. Me buying a used copy of a game to try out would most likely make me buy the next new title they release.

This is INDEED buying physical media. When i buy a cd or game, and i sell it, then i should own a copy of it forever if it was the way you say it. But i dont. So indeed it is buying a item.
 

·
Reverend Secret Flower
Joined
·
11,836 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Also, when i buy a used cd, i get to listen to all the songs on the cd.

Charging a online pass for a used game is like buying a used cd and only getting half the songs on the cd and having to pay for the other half after you already bought the cd.

Thats not how things work. I just got back from game stop, and would really like to play battlefield 3 and wouldnt mind laying down the 40 bucks for a new copy. But out of principal, finding out they charge for an online pass on a used copy made me not buy it on principal.

So therefore, its an active case of them litterally losing money because of one of their stupid practices. I too my 40 bones and bought Hitman instead.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top