Metal Guitarist Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 192 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I love the convenience, reliability, and consistency of my FRFR setup (either an hd500 or axe-fx ultra into an hd1221 or k12) but i'm debating going back to a tube setup. My setup is pretty loud (not as loud as my other guitarists 6505+ and mesa 4x12) but it seems like I am buried every time we practice and I get lost in the mix of things. Plus even then it seems like I still need to be louder. We've played a couple of gigs without a PA, and my little setup didn't cut it.

So I'm seeing what options/routes are out there that sound good, have plenty of volume, reliable, and as affordable for what one can expect. I've been considering a Blackstar setup, perhaps a mini 5150III (not sure about volume though) or some Peavey 5150 setup (a little versatility would be nice other than just straight metal, and if I can get away without having to run a tube screamer up front for a tight sound that's even better) but I'm not sure if I'm missing anything or should be considering something else.

It's not a necessity either but being able to practice at bedroom volumes with it would be a plus (but not required)
 

·
Oh yeah!
Joined
·
1,913 Posts
Why not consider buying a normal cab with a solid state power amp and running the digital stuff you already have through it? That's how I would solve that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
It sounds more like an EQ thing rather then a Digital vs Tube problem. Tubes seem to have this kind of "sizzle" or something which must be a frequency that helps it cut through, whereas anything digital sounds a little smoother. The issue for me was that when you get a great tone dialled in it rarely transfers through with the band (digital). For my tone on my Axe2 I dialled it in as best as possible, then while rehearsing I'd tinker with it between songs until it cut. When I played it alone again after practice it didn't sound that great on my own, but it sounded awesome in the mix.

Another way to help would be to use FRFR for one output and grab a guitar cab for the other. That way you get a bit of that Raw tearing tone through your cab, but you'll also get the smooth FRFR tone as well.

All of that being said, you can't go wrong with a 5150, 5150ii, 6505+, 5150iii. The 5150ii I had was ridiculously loud though!
 

·
I am Groot
Joined
·
32,450 Posts
I love the convenience, reliability, and consistency of my FRFR setup (either an hd500 or axe-fx ultra into an hd1221 or k12) but i'm debating going back to a tube setup. My setup is pretty loud (not as loud as my other guitarists 6505+ and mesa 4x12) but it seems like I am buried every time we practice and I get lost in the mix of things. Plus even then it seems like I still need to be louder. We've played a couple of gigs without a PA, and my little setup didn't cut it.
Actually, half the problem is that guitarists seem to keep thinking their instrument needs a full range setup, when the actual frequency response of a guitar is far more limited. Tube amps operate in this narrower range. Plus, with a tube amp, you're hearing your guitar behind you, while with an FRFR setup, you're hearing a model of a mic'ed guitar rig being tossed back at you. I'm completely unsurprised that you're unhappy with it. If I was going with a modeling rig, it would be because I have in ears, or everyone is using them. On a loud stage at a local show? Forget it. I see guys struggle with this constantly, which is why I keep dragging around a halfstack.

If you're really happy with the tone from your modeler, then get yourself a 4x12 and a tube power amp. What you're missing is that feeling of a halfstack roaring behind you.

It sounds more like an EQ thing rather then a Digital vs Tube problem. Tubes seem to have this kind of "sizzle" or something which must be a frequency that helps it cut through, whereas anything digital sounds a little smoother.
The description you're looking for is, "tube amps sound better". :fawk:
 

·
Retarded P.A Overlord.
Joined
·
14,248 Posts
Do you still have a HD500? Running one of those with a pedalsnake as both effects and a foot controller is the sleekest tube amp set-up I've seen. Worth a punt if you get a 5153 (since it's MIDI), or any other amp and a RJM Mini Amp Gizmo stuck to the back.

What kind of cash you looking at?
 

·
Bork!
Joined
·
8,292 Posts
Another thing to consider is that 5150/6505s completely dominate a mix with another guitar tone present. The tones could be at exactly the same volume, and the 5150/6505 would probably still seem louder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
The description you're looking for is, "tube amps sound better". :fawk:
The tone is so close that most people will never be able to tell the difference. We did a tone match at the recording studio after my band finished it's EP. The IR turned out to be so similar it was almost scary! we recorded my Axefx2 tone, and played one part of a verse with it, and another part of the verse with the 6505+ album tone. The difference was negligible even on a post EQ'd/Mastered song.

The versatility of my Axe2 is way too nice to pass up. While everyone else has to mic their cab and put their master volumes down to 2 etc, I get an XLR and go straight to front of house with one input giving out my Album tone. I also have a guitar cab using a separate output on stage so if I need more volume I just turn that up without pissing off the sound guy by ruining his levels.

I still have tubes though. Some of the amps you just have to keep for the sake of having. In most cases I can get a better sounding tone out of the Axe with FW15.03. :taunt:
 

·
Could be Hitler
Joined
·
7,666 Posts

·
I am Groot
Joined
·
32,450 Posts
The tone is so close that most people will never be able to tell the difference. We did a tone match at the recording studio after my band finished it's EP. The IR turned out to be so similar it was almost scary! we recorded my Axefx2 tone, and played one part of a verse with it, and another part of the verse with the 6505+ album tone. The difference was negligible even on a post EQ'd/Mastered song.
For decades, guitarists have tried to get the sound of the amp in the room on tape. It's been a constant struggle, since a mic doesn't "hear" things in the same way as the human ear. Now, everyone wants their recorded tone live. Did everyone suddenly forget how shitty recorded tone is compared to live? You know who in the audience cares that your live tone is the same as your recorded tone? No one. You're way over-thinking this, just get an amp, crank it up, and rock the fuck out. :lol:
 

·
Could be Hitler
Joined
·
7,666 Posts
Noodles is winning this thread.....by a wide margin! :lol:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
23,428 Posts
Now, everyone wants their recorded tone live. Did everyone suddenly forget how shitty recorded tone is compared to live?
Now, we live in a world where people get their music from iTunes and MP3 players, and not live shows.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
For decades, guitarists have tried to get the sound of the amp in the room on tape. It's been a constant struggle, since a mic doesn't "hear" things in the same way as the human ear. Now, everyone wants their recorded tone live. Did everyone suddenly forget how shitty recorded tone is compared to live? You know who in the audience cares that your live tone is the same as your recorded tone? No one. You're way over-thinking this, just get an amp, crank it up, and rock the fuck out. :lol:
Why not do both? I'm not saying you're wrong.

All of the people that came up to me after the show to compliment me on my tone can't be wrong. That, and the sound guy who told me how nice it was to not have someone tinkering and fucking up his levels during the show. But you know whatever … :metal:
 

·
Could be Hitler
Joined
·
7,666 Posts
Why not do both? I'm not saying you're wrong.

All of the people that came up to me after the show to compliment me on my tone can't be wrong. That, and the sound guy who told me how nice it was to not have someone tinkering and fucking up his levels during the show. But you know whatever … :metal:
He's a sound guy...it's his job....fuck him :lol:
 

·
I am Groot
Joined
·
32,450 Posts
Why not do both? I'm not saying you're wrong.

All of the people that came up to me after the show to compliment me on my tone can't be wrong. That, and the sound guy who told me how nice it was to not have someone tinkering and fucking up his levels during the show. But you know whatever … :metal:
I'm glad your experience has positive, since it is absolutely NOT typical. Most soundmen I've dealt with have been incompetent, apathetic, or, most often, both. Take your pick from the deaf mute or the drum/bass scene kid, since that is 90% of the shows I've played. It's already bad enough that I have to rely on some moron for front of house, there is no way in hell I'm trusting my stage volume to him, too. :lol:

I don't know how many places we've played with the soundman who obviously hates guitar, since you go the whole day without hearing solos. I mean, you see the fingers moving, but that's about it. A 100w halfstack in a small club is like a giant fuck you to those guys, since I *will* be heard out front. "I'll just take you out of the mix!" isn't much of a threat when the room is less than a 1000sqft and your rig says Mesa on it. I've tried the direct route, and I got tired of being seen and not heard.

I'm glad that you have a good soundman and a cozy relationship with him. I've got a loud amp and a bad attitude, so I ignore the ones that don't see it my way. Can't hear them complain when I've got 'er halfway up. Those are *my* levels, bitch! :lol:
 

·
The Singlecut King of Northern VA
Joined
·
2,299 Posts
There is a reason the original Line 6 HD heads (ones based off Pod 2.0) where 300 watts, and that is because you need that much power in solid state to keep up with a 100 watt tube amp.

I have seen many bands and ones that use the same type such as tube and tube or solid state and solid state always work the best together.
 

·
Is Actually Recording
Joined
·
32,765 Posts
noodles, you're fucking owning this thread, man. :yesway:
No disrespect to Dave, but he's being fed a bunch of fairly stock arguments about why "modelers are better." He's still on autopilot here. :lol:

The AxeFX is damned good, no doubt - it's the first modeler I think I've ever tried where it's actually just fun to play through, and dialed in right it sounds fucking spectacular.

But, Dave's not wrong - a good "studio" tone and a good "live" tone are not the same thing, and running direct means really needing to trust your sound guy, which is obviously a huge gamble.

FWIW, it's less of a "frequency thing" to my ears than it is dynamic response - either models are overgained or the dynamics are just wrong or something, because the bulk of the modelers I've tried just don't respond like a real amp. The AxeFX is an exception, and strangely I always thought the modeling on the Johnson J-Station was fairly good for the mid-gain stuff I tend to go for, though the cabined sims were al absurdly bass heavy which sort of ruined it. :lol:
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
10 Posts
I'm glad that you have a good soundman and a cozy relationship with him. I've got a loud amp and a bad attitude, so I ignore the ones that don't see it my way. Can't hear them complain when I've got 'er halfway up. Those are *my* levels, bitch! :lol:
Nothing says "good live sound" like a guitarist ignoring the sound guy and turning his amp up as loud as he wants, right? :fawk:
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
10 Posts
No disrespect to Dave, but he's being fed a bunch of fairly stock arguments about why "modelers are better." He's still on autopilot here. :lol:
Right? It's Dave hating on the Axe-Fx, and posting as though he plays Madison Square Garden on the regular. Really he's just channeling his Fractal hate. At the end of the day we all know that Mike tells him where to set his levels anyway.
 
1 - 20 of 192 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top